Low time SIC on King Air

[b727]

Any info on this job on planejobs.com I have a friend that needs some help? I can get into the jobs page but can't get to the details.

 

[ALASKAN AVIATOR]

Sure...

Tell your "friend" that he should pay for it like the rest of the suckers out there who can't do some simple research or make some phone calls.

 

[b727]

Good Answer

I like that answer. I tell him to go get a subscription. After all it is the early bird that gets the worm.

 

[English]

It's a gig local to me. I've heard nothing but bad things about it...

 

[Citationkid]

I thought it has to be a 2 pilot aircraft to log SIC.

 

[Be200pilot]

no, read the FAR's

 

[woody]

I agree with Citationkid.....Ive had this discussion with the FAA as well as a few examiners at Simuflite, you cant log SIC time in an aircraft that is certified for one pilot. If anyone knows something different please tell me. I have some low time guys that I contract that could benefit from logging additional experience. Thanks Woody

 

[skyking1976]

You can log SIC under Pt. 135 passenger ops if the ops specs do not allow for autopilot in lieu of SIC.

SK

 

[Citationkid]

Yeah but then its a 2 pilot aircraft, right?

 

[flx757]

Yeah but then its a 2 pilot aircraft, right?

That just a matter of semantics. If the aircraft is type certificated as a single pilot aircraft, it is still a single pilot aircraft. Just because you are operating the flight under regulations which require a Second-in-Command doesn't change the fact that it is certificated for one pilot.

Even if the aircraft is type-certificated for operation by one pilot, if the "regulations under which the flight is being conducted" (Ref: Title 14 CFR 61.51(f)(2) require it, then you may legally log SIC time, provided the provisions of CFR 61.55 (Second-in-Command qualifications) have been met.

Woody,

Read 61.51(f)(2). This is the reference for logging SIC time in an aircraft type certificated for only one pilot. The flight must be conducted under regulations (such as FAR 135, for example) which require a Second-in-Command, and the pilot must be qualified as a Second-in-Command as per 61.55.

 

[Citationkid]

My dad flies a C-12, which is two pilot, and they had a problem one day and needed a ferry permet and the FAA said that only one pilot could go because the King Air is a single pilot aircraft, but they won't let them fly it single-pilot normally, so is that a single or two pilot aircraft?

 

[flx757]

My dad flies a C-12, which is two pilot, and they had a problem one day and needed a ferry permet and the FAA said that only one pilot could go because the King Air is a single pilot aircraft, but they won't let them fly it single-pilot normally, so is that a single or two pilot aircraft?

Ferry permits are often issued with "minimum flight crew only". A C-12 is a King Air, if I am not mistaken, and therefore is type certificated for a minimum crew of one pilot. Therefore, for the ferry permit, the FAA only allows the minimum crew of one.
Whether or not their normal ops is with 2 pilots is irrelevant in this case.

 

[Rick1128]

FAA Legal has issued several Letters of Interpretation that state that under Part 135, even if the Operator has Single Pilot Authority and the Pilot and Aircraft are Single Pilot Qualified, if the company assigns an SIC to the aircraft, it is a two pilot aircraft until such time as the company desires. And the SIC may log SIC time.

 

[A Squared]

FAA Legal has issued several Letters of Interpretation that state that under Part 135, even if the Operator has Single Pilot Authority and the Pilot and Aircraft are Single Pilot Qualified, if the company assigns an SIC to the aircraft, it is a two pilot aircraft until such time as the company desires. And the SIC may log SIC time.

No, this is a myth. In reality the FAA's Chief Counsel has issued a letter of interpretation which states the exact opposite. The letter states very clearly that even if the 135 operator "designates" a fully qulified SIC, he still may *NOT* log SIC time unless a SIC is required (2 pilot airplane or operation requiring 2 pilots by regulation)

If you have some letter that you think allows logging SIC time when an SIC is not required, please post it, including the name and position of the person who issued it. I'd be very interested to read it and know it's source. The letter I refer to is posted below. It was issued by the Assistant Chief Counsel, and it can be found on the FAA's legal FAQ page. If you have something which you believe supersedes this, please post it so we all can see.





Mr. Jeff Karch
P.O. Box 5791
Lynnwood, WA 98046-5791

Dear Mr. Karch:

This is in response to your letter dated August 26, 1996, to the Office of the Chief Counsel, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), concerning the logging of pilot-in-command (PIC) time. Additionally, your letter raises questions regarding the qualifications of pilots designated as second in command (SIC) by part 135 (14 CFR part 135) operators.

In your letter you present the following scenario: A pilot, wishing to advance his or her career, pays a part 135 operator to fly in the right pilot seat during part 135 operations. The part 135 operator designates this pilot as second in command (SIC) and allows him or her to manipulate the controls. The aircraft being flown during these operations is not required by type certification to have more than one pilot and the part 135 operation being conducted does not require more than one pilot. You ask whether the above pilot can log PIC time during those portions of the flight when he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls and whether a pilot may be considered the SIC for the part 135 operation if he or she is paying the part 135 operator to conduct the flight. The answers to these questions are discussed below.

The logging of flight time is governed by section 61.51 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (14 CFR part 61.51). That section requires the logging of aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, flight review, or the recent flight experience requirements of 14 CFR part 61. The FAA does not require the logging of other flight time, but it is encouraged.

Logging of SIC flight time is governed by section 61.51(f), which provides, in pertinent part, that a person may log SIC time only for that flight time during which that person acts as SIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required by the aircraft’s type certificate or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

If a pilot designated as SIC is not required by either the aircraft type certificate or the regulations under which the operation is being conducted (e.g. 14 CFR part 135.103), as is the case in the scenario above, then the pilot designated as SIC may not log flight time as SIC. Although the flight time cannot be logged as SIC time, the pilot designated as SIC may be able to log part or all of the flight time as PIC in accordance with section 61.51(e).

Section 61.51(e) provides, in pertinent part, that a private or commercial pilot may log PIC time only for that flight time during which that person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or is acting as the PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

Accordingly, a pilot designated as SIC may log as PIC time all of the flight time during which he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which that individual is rated. Although the pilot designated as SIC in the scenario you provided in your letter may be properly logging flight time pursuant to section 61.51(e), the more important issue raised in your letter concerns whether or not this individual is properly qualified to be designated as SIC and to manipulate the controls of the aircraft.

Section 135.95 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (14 CFR part 135.95) provides, in pertinent part, that no certificate holder may use the services of any person as an airman unless the person performing those services holds an appropriate and current airman certificate and is qualified, under this chapter, for the operation for which the person is to be used. (Emphasis added)

Section 135.115 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (14 CFR 135.115) governs who may manipulate the controls of an aircraft being operated under part 135. This section states, in pertinent part, that no person may manipulate the flight controls of an aircraft during a flight conducted under part 135 unless that person is a pilot employed by the certificate holder and qualified in the aircraft. (Emphasis added)

As a result, a part 135 operator may only designate a pilot as SIC and allow that individual to manipulate the controls of the aircraft if that pilot is "qualified" in the aircraft and "employed" by the certificate holder. In order to be "qualified" in the aircraft for the operation for which the person is to be used, a pilot designated as SIC must meet all applicable regulatory requirements including the eligibility requirements under section 135.245 (14 CRF part 135.245) and the initial and recurrent training and testing requirements under section 135.293 (14 CFR part 135.293).

Section 135.245 provides, in part, that a certificate holder may not use any person, nor may any person serve, as SIC of an aircraft unless that person holds at least a commercial pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and an instrument rating.

Section 135.293 provides, in part, that a certificate holder may not use any person, nor may any person serve as a pilot, unless that pilot has passed a written or oral test on the listed subjects in this section as well as pass a competency flight check.

Therefore, a part 135 operator may only designate a pilot as SIC if that pilot is properly "qualified" in accordance with the regulations including sections 135.95 and 135.115 (he or she holds the appropriate certificate and ratings pursuant to section 135.245 and that pilot has received the initial and recurrent training and testing requirements in accordance with section 135.293).

In addition to being properly "qualified," a pilot may only manipulate the controls of an aircraft under section 135.115 if that individual is also "employed" by the part 135 operator. A pilot is considered to be "employed" by a certificate holder under part 135 if the pilot’s services are being "used" by the certificate holder. This is the dictionary definition of the word "employed"; there does not have to be a direct employer to employee compensatory relationship. While there does not have to be a direct employer to employee compensatory relationship, there does have to be an oversight relationship of the individual by the certificate holder for that individual to be considered properly "employed" (used) by the certificate holder.

As part of this oversight relationship, the part 135 operator is required, pursuant to 14 CFR part 135.63(a)(4), to keep certain records of each pilot the certificate holder uses in flight operations (e.g. the pilot’s full name, the pilot’s certificates and ratings, the pilot’s aeronautical experience, the pilot’s duties and assignments, the date and result of each initial and recurrent competency tests and proficiency and route checks, the pilot’s flight time,…). In addition, the part 135 operator is required under 14 CFR parts 135.251 and 135.255 to provide, directly or by contract, drug and alcohol testing for each individual it "uses" in safety-sensitive positions. Flight crewmember positions, of which pilots fall under, are considered to be safety-sensitive positions as defined under part 121, appendices I and J, (14 CFR part 121, appendices I and J), which require drug and alcohol testing.

In summary, based on your scenario, a pilot, wishing to advance his or her career, may pay a part 135 operator to fly in the right pilot seat during part 135 operations provided he or she is qualified, under part 135, for the operation for which the person is to be used. In addition, this pilot may manipulate the controls of the aircraft during part 135 operations provided he or she is employed by the certificate holder. This pilot may be designated as SIC even though the aircraft being flown does not require more than one pilot and the regulations under which the flight is being conducted do not require more than one pilot. Finally, this pilot may log PIC time for those portions of the flight when he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, but may not log any portion of the flight as SIC time.

We hope that this satisfactorily answers your questions. This opinion has been coordinated with Flight Standards.

Sincerely,

Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division

 

[siucavflight]

2 pilots, 1 pilot. Just fly the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** thing

 

[Be200pilot]

i agree
i didnt have enough patience to read that whole thing. ive got my own theory though. log SIC pt 135 only if you were trained by the company (groundschool/checkride) to do so. dont log PIC when you know it sounds shady. and for 91, just dont log SIC ever.

 

[A Squared]

i didnt have enough patience to read that whole thing.

Exactly! this is precisely why we have these stupid myths persisting in aviation. Here we have the actual answer from the very official who is in charge of interpreting the FARs and you "didnt have enough patience" to read it. Instead, you'd rather make up your own "theory" ... never mind that your answer is wrong, never mind that the correct answer is right in front of you. I've never understood people who conciously chose ignorance. I will say that your "theory" isn't completely incorrect. You said "and for 91, just dont log SIC ever." OK, you got that part right.

Alrighty, then, for those of you who can't spare the 3 minutes to read the letter of interpretation, there's a simpler way of putting it.

Ask yourself, if I didn't show up for the flight, could the PIC make the flight by himself without violating any FARs? If the answer is yes, you are not legally entitled to log SIC time.

It's that simple, and that's exactly what the regs say, and that's exactly what the Letter of interpretation says. It doesn't matter what your boss says or what your client says or what your insurance company says.

 

[Be200pilot]

ok, i took the time to read it and ive read the same type of letters from Mr Blah at the FSDO saying a totally differnt thing altogether. there are tons of other interpretations of logging time under pt. 135 all from proper authorities. this letter is just another one of those
oh yeah, what about pt 135 with passenger ops without utilizing the "autopilot in lieu of" rule. then i dont think the PIC could take off by himself without violating FAR's

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Boy, sure looks clear no SIC time! Though, since that is totally opposite to what I always thought I did a little search and found this letter. Same guy gives opposite answer:


March 26, 1992


Mr. Michael G. Tarsa


Dear Mr. Tarsa:

Thank you for your letter of April 3, 1991, in which you ask questions about logging pilot in command (PIC) and second in command (SIC) time when operating under Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR). We apologize that staff shortages, regulatory matters, and interpretation requests received prior to yours prevented us from answering your questions sooner.

Your letter presents the following scenario: a Part 135 certificate holder conducts operations in multiengine airplanes under instrument flight rules (IFR). The operator has approval to conduct operations without an SIC using an approved autopilot under the provisions of FAR 135.105. The operator has assigned a fully qualified pilot, who has had a Part 135 competency check, to act as SIC in an aircraft that does not require two pilots under its type certification. Although FAR 135.101 requires an SIC for Part 135 operations in IFR conditions, the autopilot approval is an exception to that requirement.

You correctly state that while the SIC is flying the airplane, he can log PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) because he is appropriately rated and current, and is the sole manipulator of the controls. Additionally, he has passed the competency checks required for Part 135 operations, at least as SIC.

You then ask two questions. The first asks whether the pilot designated as PIC by the employer, as required by FAR 135.109, can log PIC time while the SIC is actually flying the airplane. The answer is yes.

FAR 1.1 defines pilot in command:

(1) Pilot in command means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.


FAR 91.3 describes the pilot in command:

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC time. Part 61 deals with logging flight time, and it is important to note that section 61.51, Pilot logbooks, only regulates the recording of:

(a) The aeronautical training and experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

FAR 61.51(c) addresses logging of pilot time:

(2) Pilot in command flight time. (i) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot in command time only that flight time during which that pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or, except for a recreational pilot, when acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(ii) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot in command time all of the flight time during which he acts as pilot in command.

(iii) (omitted).

(3) Second in command flight time. A pilot may log as second in command time all flight time during which he acts as second in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

As you can see, there are two ways to log pilot in command flight time that are pertinent to your question. The first is as the pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft during flight time. If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 135.109, that person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft.

The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to your question is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, as you mention in your letter. Thus, a multiengine airplane flown under Part 135 by two pilots can have both pilots logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated second in command is manipulating the controls.

We stress, however, that here we are discussing logging of flight time for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if the second pilot in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or only as an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC can log PIC time, that pilot has not qualified to serve as a PIC under Part 135.

An example of this difference is FAR 135.225(d), which raises IFR landing minimums for pilots in command of turbine powered airplanes flown under Part 135 who have not served at least 100 hours as PIC in that type of airplane. Served and logged are not the same in this context, and no matter how the SIC logs his time, he has not served as a PIC until he has completed the training and check rides necessary for certification as a Part 135 PIC.

Approval for single pilot operations with use of an operative approved autopilot system under FAR 135.105 gives an operator an additional option in the conduct of operations. It does not mandate that all future flights be conducted in that manner. The operator can elect to fly trips with two pilots, as is otherwise required for flight in IFR conditions under FAR 135.101, using the second in command instead of the autopilot.

Your second question asks if, under the circumstances given above, the SIC can log time as SIC when the designated pilot in command is flying the aircraft. The answer is yes, as long as the certificate holder is using the SIC as a crewmember instead of exercising the autopilot authorization. In other words, the certificate holder elects not to conduct an IFR flight using the single pilot with a functioning autopilot option, but rather conducts an IFR flight using two qualified pilots. The two pilots are then "required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted", FAR 61.51(c)(3), and the assumption is that the second pilot (SIC) will function as a required crewmember, and SIC time may validly be logged. However, if for some reason another qualified pilot "rides along" and does not function as a crewmember, then second in command time may not be validly logged.

This interpretation has been prepared by Arthur E. Jacobson, Staff Attorney, Operations Law Branch, Regulations and Enforcement Division; Richard C. Beitel, Manager. It has been coordinated with the Manager, Air Transportation Division, and the Manager, General Aviation and Commercial Division, Flight Standards Service.

We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.

Sincerely,


Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division

 

[trainerjet]

Scott,

You can't tell the difference in those two scenarios?

To the Be200Pilot,

I see you're one of those who believe that Mr. Blah at the FSDO has the authorization to interpret the regs. I guess that what you get for not having the patience or caring enough to bother with the facts. Just the kind of guy I'd want as my pilot.