lost radio procedures

[LR25]

"Personally, I would never go into a high-density airport in IMC with no radio, if I could prevent it. I would select a non-busy airport convenently off my filed or cleared route and execute an approach there, if I was unable to fly into VMC conditions."


Nosehair, ATC is expecting you to go to your destination "if" you do not encounter VMC conditions.

They are expecting you, and they are counting on you to do this.

Everything is out the window if you infact enter VMC conditions and land at another airport. What method would you deviate from the flight plan or clearance and shoot an instrument approach. In this senario, they will have to be clearing even more airspace and try to guess where you would be going and to what airport your were going to land at.

If you would continue to your final destination, your only talking about the time it takes to do a full procedure and get you clear of the runway.

Just curious.

 

[Vector4fun]

Re: NORDO

Vector4fun, you have actually had nordo experiences, as a controller, in recent times? Really? I thought it was almost non-existant anymore, since we got out of tubes.

Yeah, the last one was about 6 months ago. It's my experience that actual *RADIO only* failure is uncommon. Most folks fly IFR with two. Complete electrical failure is not as uncommon, especially with older aircraft. (Generator systems). That brings up a whole new set of problems for the NORDO rules. Like, how are you going to fly an approach at your *filed* destination if IMC????

You bring up a point of interest to me. (1)If you are working an inbound and you loose radio contact, can't you get an ETA? How difficult or time-consuming would that be? (2)If you are taking a hand-off from an adjacent approach control, and you never get a radio call, what is your procedure? Do you get an ETA on this guy? Do you go through FSS to establish contact, like I have been telling my students?

I get an arrival strip with your destination airport, the STAR you've been assigned, and a computer generated estimate at the airspace boundry. That estimate has not a whit to do with anything you filed. It's when the HOST at the Center says you should be there. I can get a few more details, like your departure airport, if I go back and ask the computer for a Flightplan Readout, but that will only give me your departure airport, and the route since last amendment. I have no idea where or how you filed. If I wanted to find out, we'd have to call the Center and have someone try to track it down, would probably take a couple hours. If you computer filed, might take a couple more to get the full flight plan.

(ooops, lat for my tee time, more later)

 

[nosehair]

No Communication

So-o-o-o, oh,ho,ho!...So, it really dosn't make a whit about what I do if lost commo....well, it does matter to try to make a sensible judgement, but ATC does not have an arrival time over tha IAF, so that does not matter. Never mind that we beat our students into trying to memorize the procedure to follow in case you are early, or where to hold, or a zillion other "situations" from which to try to adapt to FAR 91.185.
That rule was written back in the beginning of IFR flying, when it was all about ETA's. And it still has validity in many cases, and is a basic structure to follow until it becomes obvious that continued flight into a high density area would be more dangerous than an uncleared flight/approach into a low density area.
This is the point that is not being made in most pilot training environments. Most pilots think that ATC has an arrival time and will "clear the airspace for at your ETA plus 30 minutes". LOL
Also, if we are navigating on a vor we can expect an attempt at contact from FSS on the vor freq, so if we can expect to do a vor/ils approach at destination, we should be having some limited comm from FSS.
Therefore, if I really have comm failure, I probably also have VHF Nav failure, so I am limited to ADF nav (in the conventional nav world) so I can best expext to do an ADF approach at some out-of-the-way-ADF-only airport.
This scenario should be practiced just like forced landings.

 

[Vector4fun]

Nose,

The procedures are, of course, still applicable in a NON-radar environment. And for tests and checkrides too I suppose. But the truth is, in a radar environment, we're still watching you on radar, esp if you're squawking 7600. Even with an electrical failure, we're able to track a primary target pretty well. Of course, you should maintain last assigned altitude until reaching the IAF, and THAT might require a turn or two in holding to get down, but controllers in general would rather have you out of the way ASAP. But since you mention the "real" world, let's look at my airspace for example. (KAUS)

Every arrival is coming in on a STAR or airway, which means you'll wind up at either the VORTAC, or a fix at the end of the STAR which is still 20 miles from the airport. Every STAR says "Expect Radar Vectors". Every approach, ILS or GPS, says "Radar Required." There's not *One* published non-radar (pilot nav) transition from the STARs or VOR to any of the IAFs. EVERYTHING is predicated on Radar vectors to the Final Approach Course, or a Visual.

Could you use GPS or VOR to navigate to the FACs? Of course, but which one? We've got four ILS finals, but only two are turned on at any one time. (North Flow or South Flow). How do YOU know which are turned on? You could guess from the TAF, but may be wrong. If we're landing on the 35s, and you go to the 17L final, will you know to "hang loose" until we recognize what you're doing, land our last arrivals, and switch the localizers?

Actually, as you noted, it's VERY unlikely you'll have a reliable ILS receiver if both Coms are out. Perhaps you have a working hand-held GPS. In any event, if you lost the entire electrical system, which is what more often happens with GA aircraft, then you're praying it's VMC here in AUS, or you just wasted a lot of fuel flying here, when you should have diverted towards VMC WX as soon as you determined the electrical system packed up and left. At least, that's what *I'll* do.

BTW, I also don't know what alternate you filed, and really don't care unless you go miss. Then, your alternate becomes whatever the heck you want now, regardless of what you filed, I'll simply ask "Say intentions", and go from there. The airlines often check with dispatch and make a new plan based on fuel remaining and WX at the time. The new alternate may not be within 200 miles of the*Filed* alternate.

Believe me, this stuff freaked me out too when I became a controller. I was amazed at how much stuff was different from what I expected.

The last NORDO aircraft I saw was a Mooney with complete electrical failure. He was IMC until about 25 miles NW of here, then he passed three perfectly good GA airports north of AUS in VMC, flew to the final for 17L, then broke it off at around the LOM, (don't know when he began a descent,) circled around a couple miles east of the field for five minutes, couldn't see the green light from the tower, (which are impossible to see in daylight beyond a mile or so maximum anyway), then flew off south, and landed at HYI. End result, we had to delay some traffic for nearly 15 minutes while guessing what he'd do next. No big deal in the end, but a PITA. The last one before that was a T-37 a year ago who actually DID loose coms only, squawked 7600, flew racetracks east-west at 3000' for 15 minutes in real night IMC deciding what to do next, then finally figured out his radio problem, re-established coms, and then asked for another "pratice approach". Not hardly friend, this will be an ILS full stop....

 

[nosehair]

"Another practice approach?"...aahh-ha-ha-ha! - sounds like something I would do!
This is cool, Vector. Thanks for your real world input. I'm gonna copy your post for an example of scenarios that I like to use when discussing "lost commo".

 

[JediNein]

This is why I always carry a handheld transceiver.

A recent NORDO experience was upon entering the clouds of a thick marine layer with a tower enroute clearance back to our departure airport. We broke out on top, squawked 7600, climbed to a VFR altitude, and debated if we would land at one of three distant VFR airports or if our departure airport had made it to VMC while I got out the handheld. The handheld could receive ATC, and every so often the controller would query us with a 'if you can hear, ident." Ten miles later, I had re-established radio contact and cancelled IFR.

If the entire route was IMC with no VMC available, we would have shot the approach most directly with our direction of flight that met the forecasted minimums without any waiting. Our tower enroute clearance limit was the airport.

99.9% of my IFR clearances are to an airport, "cleared to the Burbank Airport via. . ." Per controllers I work with daily, that means "get yer NORDO a$$ to that airport and get out of our hair, RADAR or NOT!!", no holding anywhere for any ETA.

Comments? Anyone receive a clearance limit that was not an airport recently?

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[LAZYB]

There you go...

99.9% of my IFR clearances are to an airport, "cleared to the Burbank Airport via. . ." Per controllers I work with daily, that means "get yer NORDO a$$ to that airport and get out of our hair, RADAR or NOT!!", no holding anywhere for any ETA.


...end of sentence.

 

[Vector4fun]

Comments? Anyone receive a clearance limit that was not an airport recently?

Not to disagree in any way, but to clarify:

In today's Radar environment, you'll almost always get an airport clearance limit initially. If you then LEAVE a Radar environment, unless you're #1 for the approach, you should get a new clearance limit, which is often an IAF. Lot's of folks never pick up on the significance. It will go something like this:

"Cessna 123, cleared to the ABC VOR via V12, radar service terminated, contact so-n-so approach on 119.8."

Lot's of folks just never really grasp that their new clearance limit is now the ABC VOR. They're busy looking up the ATIS freq and checking in on the new freq. The fact that the controller never issues holding instructions and an EFC is not significant, because neither is required if no delay is expected . The next (approach) controller may then immediately change your clearance limit by re-clearing you to another fix, perhaps the LOM for the ILS.

Chances are, you may never run into this type of stuff unless you fly in the mountains out west, or Canada or Alaska for example. Many years ago, I worked at a non-radar approach control. (the place now has a new tower and radar). But it was always "fun" to have the following type exchange:

"Approach, Mooney 34X is with ya (man I hate that phrase), with information Alpha".

"Mooney 34X, say DME."

"Uh, we're 34 DME".

"Mooney 34X, cleared to TOPAN via V68, the 17 DME arc north, and the localizer course. Maintain NINER thousand until established on the 17 DME arc, then descend and maintain seven thousand. Report crossing the 360 degree radial on the arc."

(llloooooonnngg pause)

"uh, approach, can't we just get vectors to the ILS?"

"No sir, the Air Force left, and took their Radar with them."