lost radio procedures

[Canucit]

Ok you are flying to a busy airport and you lose radio communications and are imc when you hit the desitination fix 20 mins early do you hold untill time or immediatly shoot the approach

A controller told me once that go ahead and shoot the approach upon getting there because thay have moved all the traffic in the area and just holding for the 20 min is just tying up airspace
I know what the regs say but if you were flying into say atlanta would you hold for say 20-30 mins

 

[Andy Neill]

The differentiation point for me is whether or not I am in a radar environment. If I were going into a busy airp[ort, I would likely consider myself in a radar environment (based on my everyday experience) with my ETA constantly being updated by my radar position.

If, on the other hand, I were in a non-radar environment, I would hold at the clearance limit and then begin an approach as close to my updated ETA as possible.

 

[nosehair]

Lost Comm

In the Airmans Information Manual in Section 4 "Two Way Radio Communications Failure" 6-4-1 in both of the first two paragraphs, a and b, encourages the pilot to not be reluctant to use his emergency authority contained in FAR 91.3(b) to deveate from any rule necessary to meet the emergency.
I am pointing out this part of the rule, because no one seems to get it. The procedure about last assigned course and altitude and when to start descent for approach is only a procedure to follow if it is deemed safe by the pilot, and is a procedure to follow until the pilot decides what is the best course of action.
Personally, I would never go into a high-density airport in IMC with no radio, if I could prevent it. I would select a non-busy airport convenently off my filed or cleared route and execute an approach there, if I was unable to fly into VMC conditions.
I would even go so far as to say that going into ATL or...how about DCA?...with no radio might constitute "careless and reckless operation." It could happen.
My point is, as an instructor, we should teach that the lost comm procedure is not something written in stone that must be followed, it is a basic procedure to start from, and the situation requires judgement.
Also, in the AIM, it reminds you to turn up the vor for an attempt at communication from FSS.
If your vor is working, if you are navigating on a vor, in most cases, you will have communication.
Teach that.

 

[Canucit]

Thanks for the input I really do appreciate it ....and will apply it


Canucit

 

[ShawnC]

Probably a better question to ask ATCer, but does ATC clear you plently of airspace if you are in IMC with lost comm?

 

[bigsky]

I also have had that advice from a controller--- but bottom line if you do what the far/ aim says that is pretty hard to contadict. On the other hand if you get violated will " some controller once told me" really hold up in court. If thats what they want then they should put it in writing!

 

[midlifeflyer]

Exercising emergency authority. I'm okay with the idea, but it has to be given some context.

Questions to think about:

What is the cause of the loss of communication? Is it something in the airplane? Is that Comm failure soon to be followed by a NAV failure and maybe a full electrical failure?

Is the COMM failure at ATC's end? I'd hate to think of a bunch of airplanes all heading to the same IAF =right now= and doing whatever they figured would be a good idea if that were the case.

Am I in an area of radar coverage? If I decide to do something different than what 91.185 tells me to, will someone know about it so that other traffic can even be told to stay away?

 

[LAZYB]

It's all about radar, radar, radar...

Ok you are flying to a busy airport and you lose radio communications and are imc when you hit the desitination fix 20 mins early do you hold untill time or immediatly shoot the approach

A controller told me once that go ahead and shoot the approach upon getting there because thay have moved all the traffic in the area and just holding for the 20 min is just tying up airspace
I know what the regs say but if you were flying into say atlanta would you hold for say 20-30 mins

NORDO

 

[Vector4fun]

OK, let's look at this logically, or try to.

Assuming you are in a NON-RADAR environment, what is your ETA?

Well, in a NON-RADAR environment, first of all, ATC keeps a written record of your time passing compulsory reporting points, and the PILOT and ATC are supposed to be updating the ETA continuously along the route. Does anybody remember the correct format for making a NON-RADAR position report??

5-3-2. Position Reporting


d. Position Report Items:

1. Position reports should include the following items:

(a) Identification;

(b) Position;

(c) Time;

(d) Altitude or flight level (include actual altitude or flight level when operating on a clearance specifying
VFR-on-top);

(e) Type of flight plan (not required in IFR position reports made directly to ARTCCs or approach control);

(f) ETA and name of next reporting point;

(g) The name only of the next succeeding reporting point along the route of flight; and

(h) Pertinent remarks.

No, I didn't think so, because almost nobody outside of Alaska ever had to do any regular NON-RADAR position reports after about 1970 or so. That's because RADAR became so prevalent. And para C 3 says:

3. Flights in a Radar Environment. When informed by ATC that their aircraft are in "Radar Contact," pilots should discontinue position reports over designated reporting points. They should resume normal position reporting when ATC advises "RADAR CONTACT LOST" or "RADAR SERVICE TERMINATED."

Now, WHY would the AIM say it's appropriate to discontinue position reporting, (and thus, ETA updates) when in a RADAR environment???

Because in a RADAR environment, ATC KNOWS your real ETA! And what about your "Filed" ETA? That's "Gee-whiz" info, just like your color aircraft and SOBs. Doesn't get forwarded to ANYBODY unless you go missing, and then somebody tracks it down to give the CAP. ATC doesn't have it, doesn't care what it is/was. So what would be the point of flying circles for 20 minutes until your "filed" ETA in a RADAR environment?

And, assuming you actually LANDED at ATL or IAD while NORDO, and were not shot down by some F-16 sent by Homeland Security to protect the Nation from feral Skyhawks and Mooneys, then MAKE SURE you tell them you were Solid IMC all the way to the FAF inbound, because the dumbest thing I see over and over again is NORDO aircraft that pass a half-dozen suitable smaller airports in VMC weather to continue on to destination.....

 

[nosehair]

NORDO

Vector4fun, you have actually had nordo experiences, as a controller, in recent times? Really? I thought it was almost non-existant anymore, since we got out of tubes.
You bring up a point of interest to me. (1)If you are working an inbound and you loose radio contact, can't you get an ETA? How difficult or time-consuming would that be? (2)If you are taking a hand-off from an adjacent approach control, and you never get a radio call, what is your procedure? Do you get an ETA on this guy? Do you go through FSS to establish contact, like I have been telling my students?