Looking for advice....

[jbarton]

Hi folks,

Here's my deal. Civilian pilot first, then went to Air Force pilot training. I now have 3200TT/600 multi (all Air Force SIC, in the KC-135). I fly about 7-10 days per month for the Air Force Reserve. When I'm not doing that I fly a Caravan and PC-12 for an air ambulance company. Prior to AF pilot training I was a demo pilot for Pilatus in the PC-12. I sometimes do contract PC-12 training for companies and individuals, and that is very fun, rewarding, and pays very well.

Problem is, aside from the AF, it is all very inconsistent and no benefits either. I'm ready for something else. I really enjoy the air ambulance work tremendously, but I'm only making like $1500 a month for the two weeks I devote to them (I'm contract, so I've learned to hate days going by without flying). I'd still like to give the other two weeks to the Air Force, so that leaves me two other weeks to do something else. I like the 7/7 schedule idea and I'm looking at Netjets.

Suggestions? Especially from people who are military part time flyers?

Thanks,
Jason

 

[guido411]

I'm not NJA clan but I'm pretty sure the 7-7 is seniority based, so dount count on holding it for years. Flops has the 8-7 but all new hires will work a "flex" schedule as of a couple weeks ago. I don't know about Flexjet, but I'm almost positive Citation Shares is all 7-7, plus upgrades are much quicker there. That's where I'd look.

 

[guido411]

I should also add that your times may or may not be competitive. I've heard recent classes average logbood shows 5000+ hours. That being said, it boils down to who you know.

 

[On Your Six]

I should also add that your times may or may not be competitive. I've heard recent classes average logbood shows 5000+ hours. That being said, it boils down to who you know.

I have heard that bare minimums are reasonably competitive now (NJA is taking on a lot of Flyi CRJ FOs) because of the high attrition rate. I hear a strike is likely in June or so. Unless pay gets boosted considerably, more people will likely be out the door and more opportunities will arise for new people...

 

[El Chupacabra]

Why would you not apply to CS instead? 7/7 for everybody. Starting PIC pay 27K higher! Upgrades years sooner.

 

[buttercup]

The CEO of Citation Shares is one of the truly nicest, classiest men you will ever meet. That's where corporate culture starts and trickles down. If you must go fractional go CS..you won't be sorry!!

 

[netjetwife]

I have heard that bare minimums are reasonably competitive now (NJA is taking on a lot of Flyi CRJ FOs) because of the high attrition rate. I hear a strike is likely in June or so. Unless pay gets boosted considerably, more people will likely be out the door and more opportunities will arise for new people...

As I said on another thread, the company has to raise wages OR lower standards. We all know that the wealthy owners of NJ planes must be accustomed to paying market rates for goods/services. I doubt, however, that they will accept a lowering of hiring standards for the pilots. If the NJ pilots vote to strike, what do you think the OWNERS will tell the management company to do--pay the pilots the going rate or lower the standards??

Do any of us think that the idea/fear of experienced pilots leaving in droves, will NOT concern the rich and famous? Rest assured, if the thought has crossed Six's mind, the owners will think of it, too, but I don't believe they'll view it as optimistically.

 

[AirBear8]

I'm not NJA clan but I'm pretty sure the 7-7 is seniority based, so dount count on holding it for years. Flops has the 8-7 but all new hires will work a "flex" schedule as of a couple weeks ago. I don't know about Flexjet, but I'm almost positive Citation Shares is all 7-7, plus upgrades are much quicker there. That's where I'd look.

NJA Ultra Pilots are getting the 7&7 while still in new hire training because the Ultra is so junior. A buddy of mine hired in January on the Hawker 800 still can't hold it there. Everyone from my Ultra new hire class who bid the 7&7 got it.

AirBear

 

[Guitar Guy]

NJA Ultra Pilots are getting the 7&7 while still in new hire training because the Ultra is so junior. A buddy of mine hired in January on the Hawker 800 still can't hold it there. Everyone from my Ultra new hire class who bid the 7&7 got it.

AirBear

Are you certain about that? I've been at NJA since last fall on the Ultra and I've not gotten the 7&7 yet, including the upcoming 3rd quarter of 2005.

A quick comparison of hire dates for Ultra SIC's who got a 7&7 schedule for the upcoming 3rd quarter indicates that the most junior SIC to recieve that schedule had a DOH of 9-8-2004. If someone from the January 2005 class got a 7&7 schedule on the Ultra, I (and a bunch of others) sure would be interested in that information.

 

[Grizz]

I think he's confused the Ultra with the X. I've held the 7&7 since indoc 2.5 years ago. For the third quarter, I was able to hold a Tuesday start.

 

[AirBear8]

Are you certain about that? I've been at NJA since last fall on the Ultra and I've not gotten the 7&7 yet, including the upcoming 3rd quarter of 2005.

It's possible I read the 3rd quarter 7&7 award incorrectly, but my classmate's names were on it. (I didn't bid it). All my classmates who did bid it had their names show up on the award, but with no line numbers I think because they're not qualified yet. I was the only one who didn't bid it and my name is not on the award.

AirBear

 

[Guitar Guy]

It's possible I read the 3rd quarter 7&7 award incorrectly, but my classmate's names were on it. (I didn't bid it). All my classmates who did bid it had their names show up on the award, but with no line numbers I think because they're not qualified yet. I was the only one who didn't bid it and my name is not on the award.

AirBear

Perhaps you misread it. An "X" in the "Bid Recevied" column means that the pilot submitted a bid for the 7&7. An "N/L" under "Line #" means that the pilot did not receive a 7&7 line.

If your friends bid the 7&7 and got a "N/L", they should get the regular 17-day schedule.

 

[El Chupacabra]

If they had no line number ... they were NOT awarded the 7/7.

 

[AirBear8]

If they had no line number ... they were NOT awarded the 7/7.

Thanks, I incorrectly assumed they got it just because their names were on the award list.

AirBear

 

[Fracster]

At this point there are no competitive minimums. If you apply you will get hired unless you royaly screw something up. NetJets is hurting for pilots. There are thousands of applications on file but very few people who have other options are taking this job.
The word is out.

 

[Sun Tzu]

Just think, you can sign your training contract and Strike ballot as you accept the job. That would be a fun environment to come to work in. Lets see how many new hires show up for indoc this month knowing a strike vote is in the works.

As Griz says, "Come on in the water is just fine".

STFD!

 

[dsptchrnja]

>>
NetJets is hurting for pilots. There are thousands of applications on file but very few people who have other options are taking this job.
The word is out.

Can you site a source of where you got this information?

 

[netjetwife]

We know they tried to get our MEC to agree to targeted pay raises --outside of our contract---because they're having trouble hiring the pilots they want at the low wages. Naturally, we told them to fix the pay in the contract for ALL of the pilots! Have you noticed that the company hasn't told the other employees just what the amount of pay is that the pilots are so upset about? That should tell you something! The reality is that it's so bad that it would generate support from the other employees. The fact is, that my husband's NJ paycheck qualifies our son for the poor kid/reduced price lunch at his public school.

 

[Grizz]

Can you site a source of where you got this information?

How about that according to the latest seniority list, we have 102 new pilots hired in 2005. The company has been putting out that they need 500 more pilots this year alone. Wow, we're already 5 months into the year it seems like they're right on track to meet those goals. Sure they are.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the attrition - 40 so far this year. Net gain of 62. Yeah...they'll increase our numbers by 500. Not a chance.

 

[dsptchrnja]

How about that according to the latest seniority list, we have 102 new pilots hired in 2005. The company has been putting out that they need 500 more pilots this year alone. Wow, we're already 5 months into the year it seems like they're right on track to meet those goals. Sure they are.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the attrition - 40 so far this year. Net gain of 62. Yeah...they'll increase our numbers by 500. Not a chance.

Frankly, I don't have the numbers and was just curious. But honestly, it sounds about like what you would expect. Why would we be hiring hundereds of pilots right now if we don't even have the majority of new plane delivery's for them to fly until late summer/early fall? It wouldn't be unprecedented to get that many more pilots this year - we already know that. They said 500 hundered this year... I'll withold further comment till Dec 29.

I'm assuming if you knew somehow NetJets was offering jobs and being turned down in droves because of strike fears or salary concerns you would have pointed that out which is what the assertion was. Citing numbers of new hires has little to do with the motives of the applicants - then said no thanks - because they had a better option elswhere.

Which leads me to wonder if you even believe your efforts will be successful. I mean, if you believe that your strike is going to get you what you want and convinced applicants agree with you, why wouldn't they jump on the bandwagon? Only difference between them and you, if you are successful, is they won't have to fight the copmany for 3 years to get the wages you wanted all along. Sounds like a great time to apply at NetJets!

So do you believe your strike will lead to NetJets giving into your salary demands? Or is it about vengence at that point?

 

[dsptchrnja]

Have you noticed that the company hasn't told the other employees just what the amount of pay is that the pilots are so upset about? That should tell you something!

Ma'm, I don't believe it is the company's obligation to explain to me why the pilots don't like their salary.

The fact is, that my husband's NJ paycheck qualifies our son for the poor kid/reduced price lunch at his public school.

I won't make light of your son's situation. Understand, however, you are speaking to someone who started at this company making 27K. Before that I was making 18K in the military doing a job more dangerous than flying private jets. So I can sympathize on one hand, the other hand... I don't even have the opportunity to make what your husband makes at this company under the current contract. No complaints from me, just a fact. It should be that way.

Do you want to know how you can double your pay? Just wait, put in the time, it will come, I know. In the meantime enjoy life, your kids, rich or poor. Do you why people who make twice your husbands salary are so discontented? Because they are comparing themselves to people who make twice their salary.

I accept that life doesn't pay us what we are worth. My wife is a teacher - do we want to have that discussion?

The reality is that it's so bad that it would generate support from the other employees.

I can't speak for one other employee, but most people are aware what the lowest paid pilot salaries are at NetJets. And it's tough to find anyone who wouldn't support a wage increase for them.

The reason why it's tough to fully get behind crews today is not because of WHAT they want... it's how they are going about it and their vengeful, hateful attitude suddenly towards a company we all grew together. Attitudes shown clearly in other posts. Realize that the day they strike is the day they threaten the livlihood of all the other employees who like to feed their kids too. Forgive us if we will take it personally.

 

[English]

We know they tried to get our MEC to agree to targeted pay raises --outside of our contract---because they're having trouble hiring the pilots they want at the low wages. Naturally, we told them to fix the pay in the contract for ALL of the pilots! Have you noticed that the company hasn't told the other employees just what the amount of pay is that the pilots are so upset about? That should tell you something! The reality is that it's so bad that it would generate support from the other employees. The fact is, that my husband's NJ paycheck qualifies our son for the poor kid/reduced price lunch at his public school.

hmmm, I didn't realize you were a pilot for Netjets as well. With two pilots in your family, you shouldn't have a problem with your child qualifying for a reduced price lunch at school.

Oh wait, you aren't a pilot? If you feel so bad about your kid, why don't you get a job so you can support him? Everytime you have an argument about your husband's pay, you bring up your "poor hungry child" and sound like a martyr. You mentioned it so many times at this point that it appears you wear the qualification for reduced price lunch as a badge of honor.

I'm all for NJ pilots' causes, but you actually are working against it with your rantings. Everytime I read this stuff (you throwing your kid into the mix) it's like you are trying to manipulate everyone's feelings. That just turns many, including me, off. If you really want to help your husbands' (or your) cause, then back off on the poor hungry kid rhetoric already. You have the ability to get a job and feed him, don't you?

 

[Grizz]

Sounds like a great time to apply at NetJets!

I'm betting that a lot of guys with the required mins facing being a probationary pilot during a work action will disagree with you. As you say, let's check the seniority lists in a few months and see who was correct and who's just being a stooge.

 

[netjetwife]

The pilots and their families DO understand that other employees have concerns. That is why they have opened a website for them which addresses the issues and gives them answers. www.nj6s.com

Informational picketing is a legal right that workers have to bring attention to their labor problems. How can you accuse the pilots of being vengeful when they waited almost 3.5 years to take that step?? The company has been engaging in punitive scheduling--surely that label belongs to them?

The teachers in our state make more money than my husband. I keep telling him that he could become a teacher...

Yes you all grew the company together, and now that company that expanded the business on the backs of its workers is refusing to keep its promise to pay them what they are worth. But we all know that upper management gets their comfortable salaries. I'm confused as to why you are blaming the pilots for expecting the company to hold up their end of the deal. I suppose you have bought into the fear they have attempted to instill in the ranks. I read their pages of misinformation. The company claims that they need to "inform" the rest of the employees of the situation. I find it hard to understand the real nature of the problem without an honest discussion of the wages that are at the heart of the labor dispute. Because I did not see the pay scale in the company's letter, I had no way of knowing if the other employees are aware of just how badly underpaid the pilots are.

From a flea market find to a house, most of us have negotiated for something at one time or another and learned that you can get burned or you can walk away with a fair deal. It all depends on how hard you try. Certainly, ALL of the employees at NJ would prefer to have the contract settled in a timely manner with the least disruption as possible. After all this time, clearly the COMPANY does NOT share that desire. The pilots are only asking for FAIR wages that accurately reflect their skills and contribution to the service provided by NetJets.

 

[dsptchrnja]

The company has been engaging in punitive scheduling--surely that label belongs to them?

Unsupported allegation. I hear it constantly. But my first hand experience tells me otherwise.

I'm confused as to why you are blaming the pilots for expecting the company to hold up their end of the deal. I suppose you have bought into the fear they have attempted to instill in the ranks.

What deal?

I don't feel any fear, perhaps you are mistaken.

ALL of the employees at NJ would prefer to have the contract settled in a timely manner with the least disruption as possible. After all this time, clearly the COMPANY does NOT share that desire.

The MEC chairman is the one who walked away from the bargaining table.

 

[Grizz]

The MEC chairman is the one who walked away from the bargaining table.

He left the table at the recommendation of the mediator when it became apparent that the items being discussed would require him to sign a non-disclosure agreement. Our elected body has made open and honest communication with the membership a central tenet of their team and the MEC chairman could not be hamstrung by such an agreement.

By the way, the negotiation committee remained at the table for the financial disclosure portion of the meeting. The MEC chairman not being there for that portion didn't stop negotiations regardless of the spin put out by Bridgeway.

 

[jbarton]

Thanks everyone....turns out I recently interviewed (#2) for a job with a Part 91 company with a few nice planes. Looks like fun, and good pay too. If that doesn't pan out, I'll be job shopping once again.

-Jason

 

[Diesel]

Dispatcher is becoming more and more of a troll.

You don't think punitive scheduling is hapening. HAAAA. Whatever.

So now i've got to suffer because you didn't make more than 18k? Big friggin wah. Not my problem couldn't give a shizle. We're comparing apples to oranges. We have two vastly different jobs.

I never understood the argument because i make 27k you should make that too.......................

 

[AZ Typed]

NET JET people...this post is not about the garbage your being tossed at NJ - RTFQ, it's a brother asking for advice. Give the advice and move on. If you want to debate about the treatment over at NJ start ANOTHER post.


$0.02 , avoid NJ - nobody seems happy, while I'm a union supporter, having experienced both sides non-union in a small company is MUCH more relaxed, fun, and easy - making your life easier. Do you get screwed non-union, sometimes yes. Do you get screwd union, sometimes yes.

My advice - go small (few airplanes, hopefully jets for higher pay), dozen or so pilots, stable company, strong leadership...you can't go wrong with this setup. Don't let the hours thing be a problem...we all know that hours are merly part of the "game" and all anybody really wants is to be able to depend on you and spend a week with you without going insane! You can teach anybody to fly - we all know that. 3200TT 600 ME Jet is prime - shop around and take the best deal!


Don't sell yourself short at ANY regional (that life SUX) or any other weak position for that matter (121 isn't what it's cracked up to be anymore). Your experience with the military is like gold and the associated 91/135/military time can carry you into opportunities all over.

...just like the 'ol 6819G days...

 

[dsptchrnja]

Give it a rest

>>
Give the advice and move on>>>

This thread is over a week old, not sure how it got stirred back up again today (and with false assertions).