logging turbine

[scuzzer23]

I just started flying right seat in a King Air B200. I do not have my high altitude endorsement, nor do I have any type ratings. I have not been through B200 ground school either. Can I log it as total time, turbine, and multi-engine? If not, what would it take?

The plane weighs 12,500 and operates under part 91 (Single pilot). The guy that flies left seat is about to renew his CFI (it is not current). He tells me I can log all the time, but I have heard different. This is the ONLY way for me to get any multi time right now.

 

[U-I pilot]

Is he an MEI or just CFI?
If he's an MEI just log dual....very safe.

 

[MarineGrunt]

Can't log it. If he were current, and you are not using that time for a certificate or rating, it doesn;t matter if he is an MEI or not. Since you don't have a high altitude endorsement, you can't log it as PIC either.

Bummer aint it? Tell the dude to renew his CFI before your next flight!

 

[Lead Sled]

Bummer dude...

Unless he has his CFI-ME and is willing to sign your log book you're just a passenger with a front row seat. Sorry .

'Sled

 

[MarineGrunt]

Edited to fix my mis-information....

He DOES need a MEI.

61.195(b) Aircraft ratings A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:

1. A pilot certificate AND flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating, and;

2. yada, yada, yada.....

"AND" meaning that he/she must have category and class on each certificate. My bad. Blame my last instructor.

 

[NotFurloughed]

Loggin' It

Per FAR 61 you may log all time as sole manipulator of the controls for an aircraft in which you are RATED. A high altitude endorsement is not a rating...Commercial AMEL is a rating. If you look under RATINGS that can be obtained under part 61 of the FAR's you will find that high alt. endorsement is not listed. A high altitude endorsement is an ENDORSEMENT.

FAR 61.31(g) states that you "may not ACT as pilot in command of an aircraft with a service....." unless you have recieved the proper training and logbook endorsement.

There is a clearly defined line in the regulations (Part 61) as to whether you are ACTING as PIC or logging PIC time.

However, I do caution that some airlines and other operators give little attention to Part 61 PIC (sole manipulator) and more attention to the honest-to-goodness PIC responible for the safety, blah, blah, blah...as stated in Part 1 of the FAR's.

The military treats its PIC time similar to FAR Part 1 as well...if you are in charge, you are the PIC.....as far as outlined in FAR 61, if you're flying, and your rated (not necessarily endorsed) you can log PIC...

 

[MarineGrunt]

Per FAR 61 you may log all time as sole manipulator of the controls for an aircraft in which you are RATED. A high altitude endorsement is not a rating...Commercial AMEL is a rating. If you look under RATINGS that can be obtained under part 61 of the FAR's you will find that high alt. endorsement is not listed. A high altitude endorsement is an ENDORSEMENT.

FAR 61.31(g) states that you "may not ACT as pilot in command of an aircraft with a service....." unless you have recieved the proper training and logbook endorsement.
.

Yeah, fergot bout that. I'm getting hammered here. When will I ever learn to shut up...

 

[T-Gates]

If this guy is flying a BE300, which he is typed in, with an ATP, can he not give instruction in that type of aircraft? I could be wrong, but I thought that to be somewhere in the FAR's.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[NotFurloughed]

No Type

B200 is 12,500 not over 12,500...no type required...

We are not talking about a B300...according to the original question...

 

[T-Gates]

B200 is 12,500 not over 12,500...no type required...

We are not talking about a B300...according to the original question...

[email protected] I would have helped If I read the question.... But just for sh!ts and giggles, would my above statement be correct?

 

[MarineGrunt]

If this guy is flying a BE300, which he is typed in, with an ATP, can he not give instruction in that type of aircraft? I could be wrong, but I thought that to be somewhere in the FAR's.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

As far as part 61 goes, he just needs Category and Class on his CFI certificate and 5 PIC if the instruction is for a certificate or rating. No ATP needed unless thats what the student is going for.

 

[vclean]

If this guy is flying a BE300, which he is typed in, with an ATP, can he not give instruction in that type of aircraft? I could be wrong, but I thought that to be somewhere in the FAR's.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

Ok, you're wrong.

An ATP is not an instructor certificate. An ATP can instruct in accordance with specific FARs in 121/135 operations. Initial & upgrade training, IOE, TTP, etc are examples when an ATP, authorized by the company, is permitted to give instruction without requiring a CFI.

Outside company operations, a non-CFI ATP can't give loggable instruction.

 

[mattpilot]

(**edit ... oops sorry... someone squeezed a post in before me )

 

[NotFurloughed]

Hey...Hey...

Yeah, fergot bout that. I'm getting hammered here. When will I ever learn to shut up...

Yeah, me too...you must be a little farther along...

 

[UnstableAviator]

All is not lost, at least it is great experience operating in the IFR world in a fairly high performance airplane.

I have about 20 hours of King Air C90 time all logged dual rec'd, and about 8 hours of which is with me in the left seat as "sole manipulator". I still didn't dare log a second of it PIC though, with the "real" PIC sitting the seat next to me.

My logbook won't show the experience I gained in those 20 hours anyway, but I know it has made me a much more competent pilot and I greatly valued the experience. We were doing data collection for LORAN and it invloved a lot more than just flying point to point. Fun stuff.....and those engineers we had in back spoke some of that advanced technical stuff that made me feel like a dog watching TV.

 

[bobbysamd]

Logging the time

There is a lot of valid hair-splitting here. My initial reaction was "no," he cannot log the time primarily because he does not have the high-altitude endorsement, meaning he was not fully qualified to operate that aircraft. And, yes, a "rating" is different than an "endorsement." And, of course, the time can be logged as sole manipulator as long as he is rated, i.e., has a multiengine rating, which he has.

However, as a practical matter, the time logged as "sole manipulator" may be heavily discounted or even invalidated come interview time. Companies want to see PIC time in which a pilot indeed signed for the aircraft and was responsible for it. Moreover, if the time is put in the logbook some sneaky interviewer might see it and ask technical questions about the airplane. So, you better be prepared to answer them, along with the circumstances under which you obtained the time. Therefore, while you need the time and it's hard to get - I know - you will be better served logging multi time in aircraft in which you were the true PIC and not the "sole manipulator." Of course, students who are multi rated and are training for advanced ratings can and should log the time as PIC-sole manipulator.

Hope that helps a little more.

 

[sky37d]

B200 is 12,500 not over 12,500...no type required...

Wait, I'm confused. I thought you had to get a 'type rating' in any turbine powered aircraft, if you are going to fly it, be PIC. By this statement, if I had a zillion bucks and bought a B200, I would or would not have to have a type rating?? By the same logic, if with the leftovers from my zillion, I bought a CJ1, would that need a type rating??
Assuming, of course, part 91, personal use only, operations. You know, take the wife to dinner in the B200 or the CJ1.

Okay, thanks

 

[mattpilot]

You do have to have a type rating for Turbine powered aircraft ... thats TurboJet (includes TurboFan).

TurboProps are NOT "thrust" producers, but instead "Power" producers, thus they do not fall under the TurboJet category and no type rating is required.


Why do you have to have a type rating for turbojets but not for turboprops, if they basically have the same engine? Answer is simple - the way they produce power affect how the airplane flies. L/D max & other factors are different.

B200 is 12,500 not over 12,500...no type required...

Wait, I'm confused. I thought you had to get a 'type rating' in any turbine powered aircraft, if you are going to fly it, be PIC. By this statement, if I had a zillion bucks and bought a B200, I would or would not have to have a type rating?? By the same logic, if with the leftovers from my zillion, I bought a CJ1, would that need a type rating??
Assuming, of course, part 91, personal use only, operations. You know, take the wife to dinner in the B200 or the CJ1.

Okay, thanks

 

[DaveJ]

Type ratings are needed for turboJET powered aircraft -- not turbine-powered aircraft.

 

[sky37d]

Well, that certainly clears something up. Now I only need the zillion, and I could go fly without worrying about the insurance company.

 

[staledog]

dude, I was in the EXACT same situation a couple years ago. I logged the time under total time, multi, and turbine, just like you are talking about. I sure as heck didn't log any PIC, but I did log it. I am sure tons of guys on here will tell you you can't log the time (actually I guess some of them already did). I ain't knocking them, and they may be technically correct, but if I am flying with a yoke in front of me and actually participating in the flying of the airplane, I am gonna log it. I would say if you have a multi-engine rating you are good to go.

fly what you can, log what you need. (tongue-in-cheek)

 

[scuzzer23]

Okay. So If he doesn't want to get his CFI-ME renewed, I guess I can fly it under the hood and log it. Either way, I already scratched out the previous time from my log book so I'll have to start over I guess. I really need multi PIC time so that I can have enough to get my MEI (15 hours).