Logging Time

[StuckMic]

How would you log the flight time in the following situation?

You fly right seat in a C-90. You have your CFII and MEI and the guy in the left seat is an ATP. He lets you fly most of the time. 2 crew are not required by the FAA on these flights but insurance does require 2 pilots. Would you log this time as PIC?

Thanks.

 

[fu69atacafyeah]

is it 135?? if so are you current per 135.293/297/299?

 

[747flyboy]

How would you log the flight time in the following situation?

You fly right seat in a C-90. You have your CFII and MEI and the guy in the left seat is an ATP. He lets you fly most of the time. 2 crew are not required by the FAA on these flights but insurance does require 2 pilots. Would you log this time as PIC?

Thanks.

Well, its not legal for two pilots in one airplane to both log PIC unless instruction is being given by a current CFI. You simply need to sign his logbook as dual given by YOU as the instructor. Than you can both log it as PIC. His ATP is meaningless in this situation because its a turbo-prop. If it was a jet than HE could sign your logbook as dual given by him because you don't need a CFI to give dual in a jet if you have an ATP.

But, as "fu69atacafyeah" asked, is it 135 or just a private flight? If its private the above is what you need to do. If its 135 you must be 135 current and checked out with the company as a line pilot.

Also, insurance requirements have nothing to do with FAA logging requirements/rules.

 

[FL350]

This topic has been discussed a million times here. There is no clear cut answer if you are part 91. It depends upon whether you are following the letter of the law or the spirit of the law. You also have to keep in mind how future employers will look at the time. Is the guy you are flying with an MEI? If so, the best thing to do is to get him to sign your logbook and log it as ME Instruction Received. You say he is an ATP. In the back of my brain I seem to remember there is some provision in the FARs for an ATP giving instruction. Check the regs on that one.

I don't know much about your experience as a pilot but from your post it sounds like you don't have a lot of time. If the other guy has significantly more time and experience than you, lets face it, you are not the PIC, so logging it as such would be dishonest. The best way to characterize your role in the airplane is as someone who is receiving instruction. The time is obviously worth something, so it should be logged. Do your best to log it so that it accuratey describes the time. When you add up your totals in your logbook they should tell an accurate story of your experiences as a pilot.

Without knowing the specifics of your situation, I can't tell you exactly what to do. However, just reading between the lines of your post, I don't think you can go wrong with the above advice.

 

[StuckMic]

is it 135?? if so are you current per 135.293/297/299?

All the flights were done under Part 91. I assume logging this flight time as SIC is not an option since there is no SIC requirement on a C-90. It sounds like the best/most honest thing to do would be for this flight time to be logged as "dual received" by an ATP pilot.

Anyone know for sure if an ATP who is not a CFI can give "dual given"?

 

[ROSWELL41]

An ATP can only give instruction if it is pertaining to their 121 or 135 air carrier to which they are employed. An ATP without a CFI cannot give instruction under part 91 or 61.

 

[fu69atacafyeah]

how bout as "the sole manipulator" you can log all that i think?

 

[charter dog]

how bout as "the sole manipulator" you can log all that i think?

Ding ding ding... We have winner!

For the purposes of logging PIC time, "sole manipulator" meets the test for logging PIC in this case for someone who holds a category and class rating appropriate to the aicraft in question.

SIC time may only be logged when acting as a required crewmember as specified by the aircraft type certificate or under the rules the flight is conducted. This may include time spent performing the duties of a required safety pilot during simulated instrument work on the part of the other pilot.

Using the CFI certificate to log the time as PIC and dual given would only be considered legitimate if the flight involved actual bona fide instruction given along with a proper entry in the logbook or other record of the person receiving instruction.

It may be wise to start a separate column in your logbooks to track time spent "acting as PIC" or "dispatched as PIC" since many employers are known to consider this time separately from PIC time as defined by 61.51 when determining applicant hiring eligibility. This is used to differentiate between those who have actual experience as the final authority (captain) and those who do not. Another of many things to consider as you build your experience and resume.

Best,

 

[Problow]

I faced this situation at one time in a King Air 200. The pilot had thousands of hours and was the only employed pilot of the part 91 operation. He did not have to have two pilots but the owner wanted him to have a warm body in the right seat that at least new the difference betwn all the levers. They paid daily and I told him the deal with the Regs. He was quite older and was not a strict as things are now. What I did was fly some legs with him as co-pilot but he soon through me in the left seat. He was only an ATP with no instructors license so the dual would not work like mentioned above. The thing is all you actually have to have to fly this airplane by the Regs is a private multi engine. Does not have to be commercial or instrument if not receiving money or going above FL180. Once I was put in the left seat I logged everything as PIC because there is no way else. He did not log time and did not need to. Now everyone on here will give you and me CRAP, I said CRAP about how I logged this so what their not interviewing you. Most will say well your not the true PIC or the airplane because insurance won't allow you to be or he could over ride ya. Well the Regs say nothing about insurance and if the old SOB died well who else would be PIC. However, before logging the time make sure he is not logging time still. If he is older and stable and not looking to go anywhere he probably doesn't know what a logbook looks like so its all good, but if he still logs time then you will have to talk him into sharing with you. Everyone on here will think this is wrong but I carefully explained this at my past two job offers which were both offered to me and I chose one. They understood. If you are going to an airline later they can be more stubborn but for Part 91 they all understood. Besides most people on this corporate board hate to admit it but they had situations just like this and they would not dare let this valuable time slip by. Just be sure to explain to future employers what the true situation was and not try to hide because we have all been there and know the truth. Good luck with the future and don't let these guys scare ya. Also if he hired you and the insurance said you had to have 50hrs in type they would except all the time you were a crew member in that model.

 

[jaxpilot]

An ATP can only give instruction if it is pertaining to their 121 or 135 air carrier to which they are employed. An ATP without a CFI cannot give instruction under part 91 or 61.

Thank you, every time one of these threads comes up, someone thinks that because you have an ATP you can instruct. You would think that people would have learned it by now. As a CFI I would hope most pilots would know the regs better.

 

[Problow]

The only time an ATP allows you to give so called instruction is under the new SIC Type Qualifications, which is just a 61.55 checkout. Not really instruction but the Reg does require them to sign logbook and give endorsement.

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

Did'nt read all the replys, but remember, if your gonna log PIC, be prepaired to own up to the seat if a situation should arise and you were sole manipulator. I always read the conviluded ways of logging PIC. However, who takes the true "responsibility" if an accident/ incident should arise....Good Luck.

 

[Almerick07]

I also was in a similar situation...auto pilot was broken and pilot was lazy so he brought me along to make sure we didnt fly into anything while he read the newspaper. I logged the time as PIC when I was the sole manipulator of the controls. As far as I know he wasnt logging the time when I flew and that was his deal regardless. Sole manipulator of controls is the key phrase in the regs...you cant log it as dual recieved if he is not an instructor. I am a CFII and my students logged PIC when I was obviously the guy in charge...they were the sole manipulator of the controls though. If youre flying the airplane and you have the appropriate ratings it is legit and an airline cant question that....but if you do claim that time as PIC you better know the ins and outs of that airplane because thats where the airline will get you if they do decide to look into that time.

 

[falconpilot]

I would log it PIC if I was sole manipulator of the controls under part 91. I would also make sure that I knew the airplane backwards and forwards, just incase you were every asked technical questions about the airplane. Also an ATP can give instruction in any aircraft which requires a type rating and he/she is type rated in the aircraft.

 

[jaxpilot]

"Also an ATP can give instruction in any aircraft which requires a type rating and he/she is type rated in the aircraft."

if its part of a training program for a commercial part 121/125/135 operator, jeeeeezus

 

[NYYfan]

i ran into the same situation a year ago. When i first flew with the company the cp would sign it as dual recieved but after a few hours it switched to pic time. He told me to log all as pic but seeing how that was to sketchy for my comfort level i would only log the pic time where i was the sole manipulator of the controls. On other legs i would be the guy in the right seat so i wouldnt log any of it in my log book but i would log it in a seperate book as experience in the ac since the cp would talk to pax and i would still do all the work.

best thing to do is make sure your log book is as honest as possible and also realize that when applying for another job be prepared for them to look down on the time even if it is legal. I have had friends that have lost job opportunities as well when they had lots of dual recieved time. The logging may be legal but it doesnt mean that the company reviewing your log book is going to like it.

 

[7KCAB]

I say log it - it is definitely good experience regardless, as long as you aren't "just sitting there" being a gear-monkey. If you are just riding and watching and not flying at all, then you'd be just as well to log SIC when you fly in the back of an airliner. BUT, if you are flying it in a true 2-pilot operation, know the aircraft systems, memory items, etc. then you won't have any problem explaining the time you logged at an interview, especially when the interviewer has experience in that type and asks a detailed system question that a PIC should know. Even if it might not be "legal" PIC time, it's good experience - opportunities are far and few between in this industry. Just make sure you can explain all your hours at a future interview in a way that you are comfortable with.

 

[FL350]

To me, the acid test on honestly logging PIC time is...

If the airplane gets dinged, who is MOST LIKELY to get canned? If the answer is "the other guy", you can't honestly log the time PIC.