Logging sim time

[Crizz]

Should one ever log any simulator (Frasca, ATC, or even full motion Level D) in your total time, total multi, total single, PIC, or actual instrument columns in your logbook?


I fully understand and believe that sim time (no matter what level) should never see any column other than Sim or FTD. I am simply asking this question to get as many opinions as I can on the topic. I am in the process of trying to persuade an individual that I know that they should not include this type of time in their logbook under total, multi, imc, and such. So please, if you have any opinion at all by all means state it, even if its been stated prior.

Thanks for your time guys.

 

[staledog]

Well, when i did my lear training at simuflite last year, i asked my sim instructor the same question. He said that in the eyes of the FAA, flying a full motion C or D sim is just like flying the airplane, and so you should log it under total time, multi, instrument, and sim. so i did. i would think he gets asked this sort of stuff all the time, and probably knew what he was talking about. but i see where you are coming from too. just my .02

 

[SDCFI]

Typical FAA there's never an easy answer. Here's what I've derived from reading the FAR's. Part 1 defines Flight Time as "block-to-block", in an aircraft, with the intention of flt, pretty easy. Part 61 however defines Pilot Time as "Serves as a required pilot flight crewmember; (ii) Receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device; or (iii) Gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device." The aeronautical experience req's for Student through Comm pilots specifically state Flight Time, but the req's for ATP state total time as a pilot. So, it would seem to me that training received in a simulator could be logged as total time, single or multi, simulated instrument, and dual received. You can never log actual or PIC in a sim because under the logging section of Part 61 both refer to Flight Time only. That's my interpretation, I am by no means an expert on FAR's. Just to be safe I have always logged my sim time as sim only, and dual received.

 

[Crizz]

I am more concerned with the career ramifications of posing sim time as total time, and multi sim time as total multi time. The legality of it can be blurred more conservative to real world scenarios and what is practical. Representing something in your logbook for what its really not intended to be would seem like a shot in one's foot.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Typical FAA there's never an easy answer.

It's not the FAA's fault. There =is= an easy answer and you just about nailed it. It's people trying to count things the way they want to that makes it complicated.

A lot of this is a repeat of what you said, but pasting from a personal FAQ is easier than typing

First of all, "Total Time" isn't really defined in the FAR. When the term is used, it's not alone. As you already noticed. the 61.159 aeronautical experience requirements for the ATP include "at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot" So there's really no such thing as "TT" standing by itself.

It's usually combined with either "pilot time" or "flight time". And there is a definite difference between these two terms.

"Pilot time" is defined in 61.1(b)(12) and specifically includes simulator time.
==============================
that time in which a person -
(i) Serves as a required pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device; or
(iii) Gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
==============================

On the other hand, "flight time" is defined in FAR 1 as
==============================
Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or
==============================

That doesn't include simulators. Even the best of them are still not "used or intended to be used for flight in the air", the FAR definition of "aircraft"

The logbooks I've seen don't have a column for "total time" or "total pilot time". They do have a column for total "flight" time or "Total duration of flight" and sim or FTD time doesn't belong there. Want to track total pilot time? Add a column and go ahead. It counts for something.

Single or multi? That's technically not something the FAA requires you to log, so it's one of those "convenience" logging entries. My bet is that most people use the columns to record time in single or multi-engine airplanes, and as Crizz said, the career ramifications are far more important than the FAA definition.

 

[BoilerUP]

I was in a similar scenario a few months ago. I recieved a BE400A SIC endorsement ina Level D simulator at FSI, and I asked my instructor how to log the time. He said as simulator only...but I've heard other people who have gone through the same training at either FSI Beech or Simuflite have been told to log it as total time and multi.

I really could have used the extra 12 hours of multi-time, as I'm pretty low in that category. The FARs seemed fuzzy to me, I got conflicting statments from everybody from FSI instructors to DPEs to FAA inspectors, so I decided the best thing was to log it ONLY as simulator.

I know of another guy who logged the SAME TRAINING as simulator, total and multi and was hired by a regional airline not six months ago. I'm still not sure if I logged it right, but I figured it was better to be safe now than sorry later on.

 

[rchcfi]

I have another question on this topic. I just started my sim training at Simuflite and understand that I should only log the time as Sim time. BUT, is there anyway to differentiate type of time? In other words, I flew 2 hours as SIC then we switched seats and I did the same profiles as PIC. Should my logbook just show 4 hours of sim time, or can I break it up into SIC/PIC time?


Side note: Anyone else ever get sick in those full motion when trying to taxi? The instructor asked me to do a 180 on the runway and I thought I was going to puke.

Cheers,
RCHCFI

 

[mayday1]

I'm not an expert here at all... but I would've thought time logged in a level C or D sim would count in the TT column..? If you can get a type rating in one of these sims, why not be able to log the time as TT..?

Also interesting... rchcfi, were you instructed to log your time only as SIM by someone at Simuflite? As Staledog commented in his post above, the Simuflite instructor told him just the opposite.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha! Ohhhhh boy! That's a good one. There is the door, now get out of here.

Actual comments (sort of but you get the point) made by Dawn and Bubba during the ExpressJet group interview to two guys who tried to log Sim time as Total Time!

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

TT and simulated instrument only....

Career ramifications: You can count it as total time and simulator, but NOT MEL or SEL. It will cause you problems in the future and the airlines won't like it.

 

[rcbullock]

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha! Ohhhhh boy! That's a good one. There is the door, now get out of here.

Was there more to this story? Did it make a difference or something? Seems like the time blocks on the app would be unambiguous and not have a 'total time' block, or at least state that TT = AMEL + ASEL + glider/whatever, and not include sim time.

I include TT on my resume (and navigator time in parentheses) but also AMEL and ASEL and SIM time, so it's easy to see where the TT comes from and if you want flight experience, just take that SIM time out. I'm not trying to get one over or anything. Does this really tick off folks?

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Some folks may disagree and that's OK. But, my experience is that logging sim as total time is bad news. Why even try it and wind up costing yourself a job. I have 30 some hours of everything from PCADT to Level 1 sim logged as SIM TIME. Now ask yourself, what does an additional 30 (or 50 or 100) hours of sim time contribute to your total time.

My understanding is that ACTUAL FLIGHT TIME IS ACTUAL FLIGHT TIME. A simulator is not flight time. Yes you can get landing current or IPC or get a type. But, sim time is not flight time.

And yes, the ExpressJet interview did got that way. That was the early June 2004 interview. ExpressJet policy is that ASEL+AMEL+Rotor, etc=Total time.

Just my .02

 

[midlifeflyer]

Some folks may disagree and that's OK. But, my experience is that logging sim as total time is bad news.

Here's the problem:

Most logbook's "total time" column is a "total flight time" column.

Very clearly, while sim time is "pilot time", it is not "flight time."

So the answer depends on whether =your= "total time" column is a "flight time" or "pilot time" column.

If it's a "flight time" column, keep the sim time out of it.

If you choose to treat it as a "pilot time" column, go ahead and log it, but be prepared
(a) for questions since most pilots log "flight time" in the column
(b) to subtract out the sim time every time you are asked for your total "flight time" (which I'm willing be will be far more often that you will be asked for your total "pilot time."
(c) to get in trouble if you confuse the two.

 

[rcbullock]

Great, as long as that's what they ask for, then that's what I'd give them. But if they have a block that says 'Total Time' then laughing at someone seems a little harsh. That's ambiguous. This is why most government and military forms have instructions on exactly how to fill out the paperwork. I don't mine subtracting my 3% of sim time (and shrinking) to fill in what they want, just let me know exactly and precisely what you want in the block.

I don't think sim time is flight time, but there is variance in exactly how folks track it.

"What exactly does the app say, and what did they try to put in it as truth" would be my question.