Logging Sim time

[list2002]

It is lunch time so I don't want to open a book. Can someone let me know what columns in a log book that simulator time can go under. The sime we use is an AST 300 level 4 sim. So far I only log simulated instrument dual given and flight training device, can I also log PIC if rated for the category, or multi-time etc.?

Thanks

 

[trainerjet]

This has been discussed at length on this board in the past...but here goes my opinion.

Simulator time (regardless of the level) should only be logged as simulator or flight training device time. It is not flight time, therefore it cannot be counted as PIC or multi or anyting else but what it is....simulator time. I also should not be counted toward your total time.

You can read some additional recent comments on this thread:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9639&highlight=logging+AST

Or do a search under "logging simulator time" to find additional threads on the subject.

 

[boxcar]

An AST is not a sim, it's a training device. Training devices range from a blackboard and chalk to a full working cockpit section that exactly replicates a specific aircraft. Check AC-120-40 series for the definition of a simulator.

 

[avbug]

A flight training device isn't a blackboard and chalk. It's specifically defined by 14 CFR 61.1, as "a full-size replica of the instruments, equipment, panels, and controls of an aircraft, or set of aircraft, in an open flight deck area or in an enclosed cockpit, including the hardware and software for the systems installed, that is necessary to simulate the aircraft in ground and flight operations."

It "Need not have a force (motion) cueing or visual system" and
it must have "been evaluated, qualified, and approved by the Administrator." A chalk board won't cut it.

Allen Pinkston answered this question well with respect to logging, in his FAQ site. This is not regulatory, and doesn't represent the administrator, but is a good coverage of the question:

QUESTION: Don't have a specific example, but can you give me the low down on how flight simulator and flight training device time can be logged (flight time, pic, sic, night, x-c, etc.) in a persons log book.

ANSWER: Ref. §61.51(b)(1)(iv), (b)(3)(iii), (g)(4), and (h)(1) and §61.51(a)(1) and (2); But keep in mind the requirements for logging time is only required for the purposes stated in §61.51(a)(1) and (2). As per §61.51(a)(1) and (2), it states:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

I also direct you to the definition of “flight training” as per §61.1(b)(6) which states: “Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.” Emphasis added “in flight in an aircraft.” And furthermore, §61.51(h)(1) addresses logging of training time as “A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.”

However, time in a flight simulator or flight training device CANNOT be logged as “flight time” or as “PIC time” or as “SIC time” or as “night time” or as “daytime” or as “cross country time” or as time in an “aircraft category, class, or type.” Time in a flight simulator or flight training device can only be logged in the columns noted as “Flight Simulator or Flight Training Device” time and “Dual Received” time. (emphasis added) And in most logbooks, the person has to write in the notation “FS/FTD” as a heading on one of the extra columns. And in some logbooks they do have a column noted as “Synthetic Trainer.”

Now, where the FARs specifically permit it [i.e., §61.57(c)(1) and (d)(1)(ii), §61.58(e), §61.65(e), §61.109(i), §61.129(i), §61.157(i), §61.187(c)(2), etc.], time in a flight simulator or flight training device can be credited in lieu of the required flight time towards meeting the total aeronautical experience or recency of experience, but it CANNOT be logged as flight time. For example, an ATP applicant with 1,475 hours total time as a pilot in aircraft that includes at least 500 hours cross-country and 100 hours night, but only 50 hours instrument flight time would meet minimum aeronautical experience using 25 hours instrument training in a flight simulator or flight training device (FTD) in accordance with §61.156(a)(3)(iii). Though the 25 hours in the sim/FTD can not logged as flight time, it may be used in lieu of flight time for the minimum aeronautical experience requirement of 1,500 hours total time. But, only because it is allowed under §61.156(a)(3)(iii).

Now, the way it would be interpreted and should be logged on the FAA Form 8710-1 application is to list the time in the “Instruction Received” and “Instrument” columns and in the line for “Training Device” or “Simulator” in the appropriate boxes. When the time is computed to insure the applicant meets the appropriate aeronautical experience requirements for the airman certificate and rating sought, the time listed in the “Instruction Received” column and “Training Device” or “Simulator” boxes, as appropriate, would be accepted in lieu of the required flight time experience required to the limit allowed, as in the example above.

 

[boxcar]

avbug, you know a lot but your education is not necessarily complete. A training device is whatever any individual wishes it to be. It could be a piece of string, a model airplane that's used to demonstrate bank or yaw, or it coud be a level 7 FTD. You wish to limit it to those level 1 thru 7 FTD's that are qualified by the FAA. Your definition is incorrect.

 

[avbug]

Boxcar,

You know, you're probably quite correct. We all have more to learn, certainly myself included. In this case, I guess my big mistake was using the official definition of the term verbatim, as provided by the Administrator and applicable under the Code of Federal Regulations.

As the topic involves the logging of flight time, and this is governed by 14 CFR Part 61, I thought it might be appropriate to address the term as defined under that part.

Hopefully I'll learn more than that one day too, so that I can educate the Administrator and encourage her to expand the definition, but until then, I'm afraid we're stuck with the published version.

Thanks for your correction. I'll take it under advisement.

 

[boxcar]

Please direct me to the FAA definition of "training device". I know where to find their definition of "flight simulation device", "flight simulator", and "flight training device".

 

[flx757]

Boxcar...

What's your point? The original question asked by list2002 in regard to logging time in an AST 300 has been answered appropriately by trainerjet and avbug. At minimum, the AST 300 qualifies as a flight training device.

The arguing back and forth about what is a training device vs. flight training device is pointless, and in this case, totally moot.

 

[boxcar]

flx757

Don't remember addressing you. The discussion concerns the definition of training device. If you have no interest in this, please wander over to another thread. BTW, an AST-300 may or may not be qualified as a FTD. If not part of an approved training program and individually inspected and qualified, it's nothing more than a generic training device. If so, it cannot be used for flight time credit for currency or certification.
Suggest you refrain from entering into discussions when the subject is outside your area of expertise.

 

[flx757]

I didn't know I needed your personal invite to participate on this board. It appears the size of your ego far exceeds that of your expertise. And since the original question in this thread has been adequately answered several times, your continued argumetative input only serves to expose your own level of "expertise".

Good day, sir.

 

[boxcar]

flx757

Since you're successfully posting without my permission, it's obvious my approval is not required. However, it's really poor form to join in on a subject you clearly don't understand and then suggest all posts except your own are redundant. As avbug knows and you apparently don't, there's subtle differences in the qualification and use of training devices and FTDs. These differences are certainly known to the FAA and could well give the original poster a legal bite in the butt if misapplied. It was those differences that were being batted around when you declared the matter closed.

Good day to you.

 

[flx757]

Can someone let me know what columns in a log book that simulator time can go under.

can I also log PIC if rated for the category, or multi-time etc.?

Thanks

Boxcar....there you go. Knock yourself out.

See ya.

 

[boxcar]

flx757

You left out a key part of the original posters's question that led to the dispute over definitions:

"The sime we use is an AST 300 level 4 sim."

In order to answer his question, it was necessary to determine the underlying facts.

1. There's no such animal as a level 4 simulator. Simulators are level's A thru D.

2. FTD's are designated level 1 thru 7, so maybe that's what he meant.

3. But wait a minute, he said it was a level 4. If he meant level 4 FTD, there's no legal way to log anything other than ground training in it. A level 4 FTD is by definition an airplane-specific device that doesn't have the capability of being flown and doesn't have an aerodynamic model in it's software. Indeed, it isn't even required to have a yoke or throttles. An example you might be familar with is the stand alone FMS trainer some operators use for FMS familarization during B-757/767 ground training.

With the question about the qualification level of that particular AST-300 still open, there's no way anyone can provide a valid answer to the basic question of logging time in it. Therefore, I reject your assertion that the question has been correctly answered.

My point remains: Those with limited knowledge of a subject should read more and post less.

 

[trainerjet]

Apparently, boxcar just wants to argue...with anyone who will argue. In his first post, he points out that an AST 300 is not a simulator but a training device . In his next post, he tells avbug his definition is incorrect even though avbug has quoted verbatim the FAA's definiton. Avbug pointed this out, though it didn't satisfy boxcar, and avbug wisely bowed out of further debate. Flx 757 then enters to state that in his opinion, the original question of can you log this time as PIC or multi-engine time had been answered. Boxcar chimes in with what amounts to you don't know what you're talking about, so stay out of the discussion. In doing so, he apparently had a change of opinion about avbug's definition he earlier declared as incorrect by saying that avbug knows . Then feels the need to explain to flx 757 the different sim levels. I did a quidk search and found a previous post by flx 757 where he detailed the different sim levels and provided references. So he evidently does understand.

Like I said, it appears boxcar just wants to argue. So, after avbug and flx have bowed out, I'll give him the opportunity to argue some more...and to have the last word on the subject, since I guess he feels he is the last word.

 

[boxcar]

I almost feel like I'm trying to explain algebra to my neighbor's three year old. The first order of business is to understand just exactly what an FTD is and isn't. This is not that difficult to understand, but some need to abandon some preconceived notions. If you really think the term "flight training device" and "training device" are interchangable, you're mistaken. Take a look at AC120-45: If you think an AST-300 is automatically an FTD, read some more. If you still think an AST-300 could possibly be a level 4 FTD, start over at the beginning.