logging sim instruction

[saviboy]

Hi
I have a question for the cfi's on th eforum. A CFI friend told me he is logging the simulator instruction he is giving in the "Time as flight instructor " collum but not in the "total time " collumn.
What do you guys think about this?

 

[Maria]

From the part 61 FAQ:

QUESTION: Don't have a specific example, but can you give me the low down on how flight simulator and flight training device time can be logged (flight time, pic, sic, night, x-c, etc.) in a persons log book.


ANSWER: Ref. § 61.51(b)(1)(iv), (b)(3)(iii), (g)(4), and (h)(1) and § 61.51(a)(1) and (2); Keep in mind that logging time is only required for the purposes stated in § 61.51(a)(1) and (2), i.e., experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review and meeting the recent flight experience requirements.



I also direct you to the definition of “flight training” as per § 61.1(b)(6) which states: “Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.” (Emphasis added: “in flight in an aircraft”). Furthermore, § 61.51(h)(1) addresses logging of training time as “A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.”



However, time in a flight simulator or flight training device cannot be logged as “flight time” or as “PIC flight time” or as “SIC time” or as “night time” or as “daytime” or as “cross-country time” or as time in an “aircraft category, class, or type.” Time in a flight simulator or flight training device can only be logged in the columns noted as “Flight Simulator or Flight Training Device” time and “Dual Received” time. And in most logbooks, the person has to write in the notation “FS/FTD” as a heading on one of the extra columns. And in some logbooks they do have a column noted as “Synthetic Trainer.”



The FARs specifically permit time in a flight simulator or flight training device can be credited in lieu of the required flight time towards meeting the total aeronautical experience or recency of experience. [See § 61.57(c)(1) and (d)(1)(ii), § 61.58(e), § 61.65(e), § 61.109(i), § 61.129(i), § 61.157(i), § 61.187(c)(2), etc.] However, this is not flight time and cannot be logged as flight time. For example, an ATP applicant with 1,475 hours total time as a pilot in aircraft that includes at least 500 hours cross-country and 100 hours night, but only 50 hours instrument flight time would meet minimum aeronautical experience using 25 hours instrument training in a flight simulator or flight training device (FTD) in accordance with § 61.156(a)(3)(iii). Though the 25 hours in the sim/FTD can not logged as flight time, it may be used in lieu of flight time for the minimum aeronautical experience requirement of 1,500 hours total time. But, this is only because it is allowed under § 61.156(a)(3)(iii).



Now, the way it would be interpreted and should be logged on the FAA Form 8710-1 application is to list the time in the “Instruction Received” and “Instrument” columns and in the line for “Training Device” or “Simulator” in the appropriate boxes. When the time is computed to insure the applicant meets the appropriate aeronautical experience requirements for the airman certificate and rating sought, the time listed in the “Instruction Received” column and “Training Device” or “Simulator” boxes, as appropriate, would be accepted in lieu of the required flight time experience required to the limit allowed, as in the example above.

{Q&A-320}


HTH!

 

[midlifeflyer]

Hi
I have a question for the cfi's on th eforum. A CFI friend told me he is logging the simulator instruction he is giving in the "Time as flight instructor " collum but not in the "total time " collumn.
What do you guys think about this?

He is correct. The "total time" in most logbooks is usually used to record total "flight" time to meet "flight time" requirements for certificates or ratings.

Nothing done in a sim is "flight time".

There might be other ways to record it, but they usually end up making a mess when trying to separate things to fill out an 8710.

 

[Cosmo1999]

How many more times can this horse be beat. You can log it as dual given/recieved but not as total time. It does not count in an interview or anywhere else as anything but sim time. You can count upto 50 hours of sim time for your commercial certificate however at the end of the day you still have 200 hours total time and 50 hours sim time.

Hi
I have a question for the cfi's on th eforum. A CFI friend told me he is logging the simulator instruction he is giving in the "Time as flight instructor " collum but not in the "total time " collumn.
What do you guys think about this?

 

[BoilerUP]

Why would any CFI log the instruction given in a Frasca/PCATD as "Instruction Given" other than to artifically boost the looks of their instructor experience?

I have over 100 hours of Frasca "dual given", but it is not reflected in my logbook. The only time I have logged as "Instruction Given" is flight time.

I'm not saying I'm right and others are wrong, but I don't see the benefit in it.

 

[bobbysamd]

Logging sim instruction given

Hi
I have a question for the cfi's on th eforum. A CFI friend told me he is logging the simulator instruction he is giving in the "Time as flight instructor " collum but not in the "total time " collumn.
What do you guys think about this?

Why bother?

You could keep a separate record of it if you want, but it will do you absolutely no good for building "dual given" time. You can log "dual given" only if you give instruction in aircraft.

Hope that helps some more.

 

[bigD]

Ladies and gentlemen....right there was the 5000th post by Bobby!

Thank you Bobby for your contributions to this board.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I log all sim dual given in a notebook for FAR purposes, and toss it after 3 years.


I see no benefit to putting it the dual given column. The only person who might care would be a flight school hiring you who might value sim instructor experience.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Why bother?

You could keep a separate record of it if you want, but it will do you absolutely no good for building "dual given" time. You can log "dual given" only if you give instruction in aircraft.

Not quite . It'd good for two things.

1. In a practical sense, it tells a prospective school how much instrument dual you've given. Some ask. (Not everything has to have an airline purpose to be beneficial to a career)

2. Flight instruction given in a simulator counts as "piloting time" [see 61.1(b)(12)] which counts toward the "1,500 hours of total time as a pilot" for the ATP under 61.159

 

[bobbysamd]

Flight time v. piloting time

Ladies and gentlemen....right there was the 5000th post by Bobby!

Thank you Bobby for your contributions to this board.

I wasn't counting. You're welcome, sir. It has been and remains a pleasure to contribute.

He is correct. The "total time" in most logbooks is usually used to record total "flight" time to meet "flight time" requirements for certificates or ratings.

Nothing done in a sim is "flight time".

Flight instruction given in a simulator counts as "piloting time" [see 61.1(b)(12)] which counts toward the "1,500 hours of total time as a pilot" for the ATP under 61.159

It may be "piloting time" but not necessarily "flight time."

Pursuant to 14 CFR 61.159(3) and (5), comparatively little of that time counts toward the 1500 total needed for the ATP:

(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:

(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(3)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.

(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.

* * * *

(5) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(emphasis added)

Review of 14 CFR 61.1(b)(12) shows that simulator time counts as "pilot time:"

(12) Pilot time means that time in which a person --

(i) Serves as a required pilot flight crewmember;

(ii) Receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device; or

(iii) Gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device . . .

. . . .but not necessarily "flight time," as set forth at 61 CFR 61.159(3). In any event, it's not enough to make a significant difference for building time toward the ATP. But, to be hypertechnical about it, yes, it apparently can count toward the certificate. And, I would not count as "pilot time" instruction I gave in something like an AST-300 or Frasca FTD. I second Maria's post, above, even if it is from the FAA FAQ.