Flying Illini
Hit me Peter!
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Logging PIC
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Rather than waste an hour typing a response, do a search on previous messages. You haven't provided any details, so the answer is that both can log it, or one can log it, or one can log PIC while the other logs SIC, or neither can log it. All depending on the circumstances. What is your question?
previous post
i was trying to figure out all this myself in a previous post:
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15430
Basically here is what i got: (posted by midlifeflyer with my hypotheticals)
Lets say for example I (a private single engine land, Inst. rated pilot) goes out flying with a buddy of mine. My buddy is NOT a CFI. He however already has his complex endorsement and we are flying a piper arrow (complex airplane). If he is the "real" PIC and logs this time, I can not log this complex time also since you cant double log the PIC time.If he didnt log this time as PIC could I?
Here's a perfect example of why people have trouble with this. Your non-CFI buddy can't log the time at all. Only you can.
Your non-CFI buddy clearly is acting as PIC. He's the one with the endorsements; he's the only one qualified to act as PIC. But, your buddy can't log PIC for the purpose of showing currency or qualification for a certificate or rating. "Acting" as PIC, standing along, is =never= a sufficient condition for =logging= PIC under the FAA rules. In this scenario, you are the =only= one who can =log= the time.
(basically does the CFI rating make a difference being that both then can log PIC "received" vs. given"?)
In the CFI situation, you get to log PIC because you are the sole manipulator. The CFI gets to log it because of a separate rule that says that a CFI can log PIC time for all the time she provides instruction. It had nothing to do with who is handing the controls.
3) Does this issue have any other snags with 141 schools versus 61 training?
Not for 141, but our 135 and 121 friends will probably tell us that what the airlines are looking for is different. I've heard that airlines are not interested in the PIC time you logged as a safety pilot in a 152, while they are interested in the times you've =acted= as PIC. I understand that some may well log all time in which they are =acting= as PIC in a separate "non-FAR PIC" or "acting PIC" column.
FWIW, here's a logging PIC summary I prepared some time ago It's a cut-and-paste from my personal FAQ):
Here's a simple version of the rules as they have officially been (written this way in the FAR and repeatedly interpreted by the FAA Chief Counsel) for at least 20 years.
(I'm limiting it to student, recreational, private, and commercial pilots. CFIs and ATPs can fend for themselves. If they don't know the rules, tough.)
Rule 1 If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for.
"Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating is necessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot certificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not endorsements for high performance, complex, tailwheel aircraft. Nothing.
Rule 2 If you are a student, recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the only person in the aircraft.
This means that even without category and class ratings, you may log PIC time if you are solo. In addition to the obvious (student solo) it also means, for example, that if you are ASEL and solo in an AMEL or ASES, you may log the time as PIC.
Rule 3 If you are a private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are acting as PIC* of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required.
More than one pilot may be required because the aircraft is not certified for single-pilot operations. But more common for low-time single engine drivers, it covers simulated instruments where a second "safety pilot" is required by the regulations all the time that the "manipulator" is under the hood.
Rule 4
Based on a unpublished 1977 Chief Counsel opinion (there is some reasonable disagreement on whether it's still any good), you may log PIC if you are acting as PIC* and you are the only person on board with the necessary aircraft ratings.
This is the answer to the silly question: "Can I log PIC while I let my two year old fly the airplane?" Frankly, I can't imagine that the FAA gives a hoot about this one way or another.
Rule 5
If you are a student, recreational, private, or commercial pilot and don't fit into Rules 1-4, you may not log the time as PIC even if you are acting as PIC.
*"Acting as PIC" assumes that you are qualified to act as PIC. That does mean being current and having the appropriate endorsements in addition to ratings.
i was trying to figure out all this myself in a previous post:
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15430
Basically here is what i got: (posted by midlifeflyer with my hypotheticals)
Lets say for example I (a private single engine land, Inst. rated pilot) goes out flying with a buddy of mine. My buddy is NOT a CFI. He however already has his complex endorsement and we are flying a piper arrow (complex airplane). If he is the "real" PIC and logs this time, I can not log this complex time also since you cant double log the PIC time.If he didnt log this time as PIC could I?
Here's a perfect example of why people have trouble with this. Your non-CFI buddy can't log the time at all. Only you can.
Your non-CFI buddy clearly is acting as PIC. He's the one with the endorsements; he's the only one qualified to act as PIC. But, your buddy can't log PIC for the purpose of showing currency or qualification for a certificate or rating. "Acting" as PIC, standing along, is =never= a sufficient condition for =logging= PIC under the FAA rules. In this scenario, you are the =only= one who can =log= the time.
(basically does the CFI rating make a difference being that both then can log PIC "received" vs. given"?)
In the CFI situation, you get to log PIC because you are the sole manipulator. The CFI gets to log it because of a separate rule that says that a CFI can log PIC time for all the time she provides instruction. It had nothing to do with who is handing the controls.
3) Does this issue have any other snags with 141 schools versus 61 training?
Not for 141, but our 135 and 121 friends will probably tell us that what the airlines are looking for is different. I've heard that airlines are not interested in the PIC time you logged as a safety pilot in a 152, while they are interested in the times you've =acted= as PIC. I understand that some may well log all time in which they are =acting= as PIC in a separate "non-FAR PIC" or "acting PIC" column.
FWIW, here's a logging PIC summary I prepared some time ago It's a cut-and-paste from my personal FAQ):
Here's a simple version of the rules as they have officially been (written this way in the FAR and repeatedly interpreted by the FAA Chief Counsel) for at least 20 years.
(I'm limiting it to student, recreational, private, and commercial pilots. CFIs and ATPs can fend for themselves. If they don't know the rules, tough.)
Rule 1 If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for.
"Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating is necessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot certificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not endorsements for high performance, complex, tailwheel aircraft. Nothing.
Rule 2 If you are a student, recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the only person in the aircraft.
This means that even without category and class ratings, you may log PIC time if you are solo. In addition to the obvious (student solo) it also means, for example, that if you are ASEL and solo in an AMEL or ASES, you may log the time as PIC.
Rule 3 If you are a private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are acting as PIC* of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required.
More than one pilot may be required because the aircraft is not certified for single-pilot operations. But more common for low-time single engine drivers, it covers simulated instruments where a second "safety pilot" is required by the regulations all the time that the "manipulator" is under the hood.
Rule 4
Based on a unpublished 1977 Chief Counsel opinion (there is some reasonable disagreement on whether it's still any good), you may log PIC if you are acting as PIC* and you are the only person on board with the necessary aircraft ratings.
This is the answer to the silly question: "Can I log PIC while I let my two year old fly the airplane?" Frankly, I can't imagine that the FAA gives a hoot about this one way or another.
Rule 5
If you are a student, recreational, private, or commercial pilot and don't fit into Rules 1-4, you may not log the time as PIC even if you are acting as PIC.
*"Acting as PIC" assumes that you are qualified to act as PIC. That does mean being current and having the appropriate endorsements in addition to ratings.
UI Pilot,
Some was close, and nearly correct. A few points:
If you are sole manipulator, then you log the time. If he is sole manipulator, then he logs the time. If you're flying it, then you log it. Forget about what he's logging. It's not your business. You are entitled to log the time you fly, if you're rated in the airplane. An endorsement isn't a rating. You aren't endorsed, and can't act as PIC, but you can log the time. Your friend may be the PIC, but unless he's manipulating the controls, he can't log it.
Change the scenario slightly, and you put on a view limiting device. The aircraft now requires a second crewmember, in accordance with 14 CFR 91.109(b). He is now acting as PIC of an aircraft requiring two crewmembers, and he can log PIC, while you log PIC as sole manipulator.
Again, not so. See above explaination. Another example is a flight under IFR under Part 135...a second in command is required by the operations specifications and Part 135 for a given operation...but the PIC isn't the one flying. Never the less, he or she may log PIC for the flight, as he or she is acting as PIC of an aircraft requiring more than one crewmember. See 61.51(e)(1)(iii).
Additionally, an ATP may log PIC anytime he or she is acting as PIC in an operation in which an ATP is required. See 61.51(e)(2). This applies regardless of weather he or she is manipulating the controls.
I realize you desired to avoid discussions about the ATP, so consider two private pilots flying an airplane which requires two crewmembers under it's type certification. The pilot acting as PIC may log the time spend as pilot in command, regardless of who is flying the airplane.
A flight instructor may not simply log the time, unless he or she is actually providing instruction, and is acting as an authorized instructor. Simply being there and holding the instructor certificate is not enough.
True, but only for logging purposes. This does not apply to acting as pilot in command, which does require the endorsements.
This is incorrect. You may not act as pilot in command of an airplane unless you are rated, category and class. You are not entitled to log time unless you are rated, category and class. You may not act as pilot in command unless you are rated category and class. You may not fly solo unless you are the pilot in command, and therefore you cannot fly solo unless you are rated in the airplane. You cannot fly solo unless you're rated, and cannot therefore be in the airplane or log time in the airplane solo unless you're rated.
Therefore, you cannot fly an airplane for which you are not rated, solo, and then log time in that airplane.
This is not accurate. I don't have my database with me, so perhaps you'll be kind enough to post the text of that legal interpretation, and we can discuss it specifically.
When discussing the regulation, weather the FAA gives a "hoot" is not material to the discussion. The answer to that "silly" question is that the regulation does not permit the acting PIC to log the time the two year old is flying the airplane.
Some was close, and nearly correct. A few points:
If you are sole manipulator, then you log the time. If he is sole manipulator, then he logs the time. If you're flying it, then you log it. Forget about what he's logging. It's not your business. You are entitled to log the time you fly, if you're rated in the airplane. An endorsement isn't a rating. You aren't endorsed, and can't act as PIC, but you can log the time. Your friend may be the PIC, but unless he's manipulating the controls, he can't log it.
Change the scenario slightly, and you put on a view limiting device. The aircraft now requires a second crewmember, in accordance with 14 CFR 91.109(b). He is now acting as PIC of an aircraft requiring two crewmembers, and he can log PIC, while you log PIC as sole manipulator.
Again, not so. See above explaination. Another example is a flight under IFR under Part 135...a second in command is required by the operations specifications and Part 135 for a given operation...but the PIC isn't the one flying. Never the less, he or she may log PIC for the flight, as he or she is acting as PIC of an aircraft requiring more than one crewmember. See 61.51(e)(1)(iii).
Additionally, an ATP may log PIC anytime he or she is acting as PIC in an operation in which an ATP is required. See 61.51(e)(2). This applies regardless of weather he or she is manipulating the controls.
I realize you desired to avoid discussions about the ATP, so consider two private pilots flying an airplane which requires two crewmembers under it's type certification. The pilot acting as PIC may log the time spend as pilot in command, regardless of who is flying the airplane.
A flight instructor may not simply log the time, unless he or she is actually providing instruction, and is acting as an authorized instructor. Simply being there and holding the instructor certificate is not enough.
True, but only for logging purposes. This does not apply to acting as pilot in command, which does require the endorsements.
This is incorrect. You may not act as pilot in command of an airplane unless you are rated, category and class. You are not entitled to log time unless you are rated, category and class. You may not act as pilot in command unless you are rated category and class. You may not fly solo unless you are the pilot in command, and therefore you cannot fly solo unless you are rated in the airplane. You cannot fly solo unless you're rated, and cannot therefore be in the airplane or log time in the airplane solo unless you're rated.
Therefore, you cannot fly an airplane for which you are not rated, solo, and then log time in that airplane.
This is not accurate. I don't have my database with me, so perhaps you'll be kind enough to post the text of that legal interpretation, and we can discuss it specifically.
When discussing the regulation, weather the FAA gives a "hoot" is not material to the discussion. The answer to that "silly" question is that the regulation does not permit the acting PIC to log the time the two year old is flying the airplane.
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Flying Illini
Hit me Peter!
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