Logging PIC during Dual Received

[Beetle007]

CFIs can log all flight time as PIC while acting as a PIC and students (appropriatly rated) can log PIC according to Reg 61.51. However, students can only log PIC while acting as Sole manipulator of the conrols and appropriately rated in the aircraft.

However, I would guess everyones log book reflects PIC during each training flight as being equal to the Total flight time. This is assuming the Student is appropriately rated in the aircraft. More significantly, this would mean the Instructor never had the contols or demonstrated maneuvers?

I would guess not adjusting for demonstrated maneuvers has been justified by precedent, and therefore is considered Legal. However, does anyone have opinions otherwise? Im currently working on my CFI (already have CFII,) so I might have lots of questions over the next few weeks.

 

[Timebuilder]

The CFI is always acting as PIC, and you as the student, once appropriately rated (PPL) are logging PIC since the time spent demonstrating maneuvers is so small. Most of my demos lasted no more than a minute. Any time when I was flying instead of the student for more than .1 during a flight, I deducted that amount from the TT to adjust the student's PIC time.

Does that help?

 

[flyhard]

This is a good question. Acting as a CFI is more of a command issue than a control issue. If anything happens, you as the CFI, are going to act as PIC. Do yourself and your students a favor when logging time. Do not log PIC and Dual given together, even though it is legal. When you fill out your first airline application, they are going to ask for your total time. This should equal your PIC, SIC, and dual given. If not, you get to seperate your PIC from dual given (like I had to) this can be a long process. Hope this helps.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Do not log PIC and Dual given together, even though it is legal. When you fill out your first airline application, they are going to ask for your total time. This should equal your PIC, SIC, and dual given. If not, you get to separate your PIC from dual given (like I had to) this can be a long process. Hope this helps.

I'm confused. Don't most CFIs have a separate logbook column for dual given? If so, it's just a matter of adding the right columns together.

 

[Beetle007]

Flyhard,

that is good advice. I would have probably logged instruction in both the Dual Given Column and the PIC Column if it wasn't for your advice. It makes sense to only Log it as Dual Given because all dual given is considered PIC also.

Cheers

 

[Timebuilder]

I was thinking the same thing, and I never heard that PIC as a CFI was seen as anything less than real PIC time. Aren't airlines going to be more interested in your PIC turbine time, anyway?

 

[bobbysamd]

Dual given

Don't most CFIs have a separate logbook column for dual given?

Mine sure does.

CFIs can absolutely log all their dual given time as PIC, and as total time, night, etc. Moreover, guess who the FAA will look to as the PIC if there is an incident?

 

[flyhard]

Before I confuse everyone, including myself. What I meant to say was do not log Dual received and PIC together. Hope this clears up some of the confusion. As far as the "turbine time", it depends on what airline you are looking at. For a major or national airline yes, for a regional no.

 

[bobbysamd]

Logging time

[D]o not log Dual received and PIC together.

What's wrong with that?

It's perfectly legal and legitimate. A sole manipulator PIC can receive instruction. Consider the notion of taking a BFR before your current review expires. Assuming that in all other respects that you're current, you can log it as PIC and instruction received.

A big selling point for such places as Riddle and FSI was how students could log PIC multi during their training. Students earned their Private Multi relatively early in their training, and logged multi PIC while working on their Instrument and Commercial ratings. I don't know of any who had problems with their logbooks during their practicals or interviews.

 

[Salty Dog]

On a previous BFR, I had an instructor ask me, "are you going to be acting as PIC?" He then explained that it was perfectly acceptable, legal, etc., but if something happens w/the Feds, if I'm going to claim it/log it, then I should answer for it.

I don't know how much water this would hold in front of the Feds, but I did find it interesting. Could also have more to do w/being a BFR instead of dual given pursuant to a rating.

Hadn't seen it before or since...

 

[Beetle007]

My opinion (could be wrong):

You can log PIC during a BFR even if you arent agreeing to act as PIC and aren't current. If I'm not current in an airplane (but rated), and receiving instruction from a Flight Instructor....I would log it as PIC because I am appropriately rated in the aircraft and sole manipulator of the controls. Logging PIC does not require you to be current in the airplane. Acting as PIC requires you to be current in the airplane.

 

[MarineGrunt]

This is a good question. Acting as a CFI is more of a command issue than a control issue. If anything happens, you as the CFI, are going to act as PIC. Do yourself and your students a favor when logging time. Do not log PIC and Dual given together, even though it is legal. When you fill out your first airline application, they are going to ask for your total time. This should equal your PIC, SIC, and dual given. If not, you get to seperate your PIC from dual given (like I had to) this can be a long process. Hope this helps.

I have heard the same thing, but I have also heard that most places just ignore PIC with Dual Received. It's not something that would make you lose the job in normal cases.

There is value to this, however, in the case there is a student going for their instrument rating and counting this time towards his 50 X/C PIC, or for insurance reasons, etc...

 

[flyhard]

I am not saying it is wrong to log it this way. You made the argument that it is legal to log it, that is correct. Remember it is also legal to fly IMC with only three approaches in the last 6 months. What I am getting at is legal is not always right. The point I am trying to make is if you log dual received and PIC together you are making a bigger headache when it comes to breaking down your times for a job app. True an employer won't axe you because you log PIC and dual rec. But the employer also sees that you are not truly in command of the aircraft just because you have your hands on the stick.

 

[midlifeflyer]

My opinion (could be wrong):

You can log PIC during a BFR even if you arent agreeing to act as PIC and aren't current. If I'm not current in an airplane (but rated), and receiving instruction from a Flight Instructor....I would log it as PIC because I am appropriately rated in the aircraft and sole manipulator of the controls. Logging PIC does not require you to be current in the airplane. Acting as PIC requires you to be current in the airplane.

Your opinion is absolutely correct.

On top of that don't forget that the CFI does not =have to= be acting PIC. There are situations where the non-CFI pilot is acting PIC by agreement and situations where the CFI =can't= act as PIC.

 

[Ralph]

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

If you look at the regs there is a difference between BEING PIC and LOGGING PIC time. You can log PIC time and not be the PIC while another pilot in the airplane IS the PIC and as such is loggin PIC time; thus two people log PIC time while only one is the PIC.

§61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time... A ... pilot may log pilot-in- command time... that flight time during which that person... Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated... [OR]... Is the sole occupant of the aircraft... [OR]... is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required...

All of these questions (including questions about safety pilot time) come down to the difference between being the PIC and logging PIC time. Lots of pilots fail to understand this!

Yes a safety pilot can log the time as PIC time under certain conditions.

Yes a private pilot with no complex time can log PIC time in a complex airplane with a CFI.

Yes some employers have different definations for PIC time. So do insurance companies. do yourself a favor and get an electronic logbook to accomadate these requests. then log your time per the FAA rules.