logging multi time

[saviboy]

hi a friend of mine is a first officer on a cessna 402.
I am wondering how can she log her time? and what is it worth?
thanks

 

[labbats]

It's not a first officer in a 402, it's logging dual.

 

[Timebuilder]

Generally, logging questions should be in the FAR forum, above.

If she is receiving instruction, she can log the time as instruction, received, or "dual."

If she is there to assist the pilot as in a job, she needs to determine if her presence is required by the regulations under which the operation is being conducted.

Other than that, it may not be loggable for a specific purpose other than "I rode in an airplane."

 

[cvsfly]

If it is 135 IFR with pax and no autopilot (or without 135.105 approval) an SIC is required. 135.101. Most likely a stripped out, bare-bones 402 with 9 pax seats.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Whats it worth to the airlines?

I would guess it rates slightly higher than logging time in a 757's crapper on a transcon flight.

Airlines will see it as logging time that carries zero responsibility in an aircraft that does not require a second pilot. In other words, they will probably never accept any of that time in consideration torwards a job.

Even Cape Air and Nantucket doesn't use F/O's and they are a scheduled carriers.

I would advise her to go back to flight instructing in a C-150......it is much more useful time from a career standpoint. Dual received in a 402 is about all it's worth.

She may be able to talk some of them into accepting it but only if the FAA says that an F/O is required in the companies ops specs.........then maybe. But I have never seen a people hauler that would rather pay another pilot instead of installing an auto pilot, so I would say she is not a required crewmember as far as the Feds are concerned.

 

[Timebuilder]

It may be that she is being paid less than the upkeep on that old autopilot.

You're right. She needs to be certain that the SIC requirement is in the ops specs. Her real focus needs to be in getting to the other seat.

 

[Bandit60]

It depends on the operation of the flight. If it is 135 and the flight requires 2 pilots then she can log the time. According to one FSDO a few years back, they told me that if the customer requires two pilots for the flight and pays for two pilots then the flight requires two pilots and it can be logged.

Hows that for a confusing answer

And for those who say it is worthless time, they never did that type of flying. In the weather and crap like that. There can be as much to do on a Cessna 402 as there is in a jet. (radios,navigation, etc.)

Good luck and be safe

 

[Timebuilder]

According to one FSDO a few years back, they told me that if the customer requires two pilots for the flight and pays for two pilots then the flight requires two pilots and it can be logged.

I am certain that you are aware that any interpretation of regs on the FSDO level means nothing. Nada. Zip.

Only the office of chief counsel can interpret regulations.

As far as the "value" of the flying is concerened, there are two kinds of "value."

One kind is the value of experience as a pilot, which is undeniable that the time spend in weather decison making, CRM, and familiarity with the airplane makes one a more well-rounded pilot.

The other kind of value is the value of this time in an airline interview, which might be questionable in some interview situations. If you can show that the SIC was indeed required under the ops specs for the carrier, then you can justify this time from a more firm position. Being able to satisfactorily answer any questions about the airplane by the interviewer, who may have flown the aircraft himself in earlier times, and being able to talk about problems, solutions, emergencies, and a host of other topics will add creedence to the hours spent in the right seat. If your answers are vague or incorrect from the get go, it could be the kiss of death.

I have that last part from a guy who serves as a captain on the interview board of a major.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

And for those who say it is worthless time, they never did that type of flying. In the weather and crap like that. There can be as much to do on a Cessna 402 as there is in a jet. (radios,navigation, etc.)

Good luck and be safe

I still disagree, Lots of freight doggie time here, and the right seat in a 402 is just keeping the seat warm, unless you are making the decisions and actually shooting the approaches in the 200 and a half weather, which it sounds like she is not.

 

[Rick1128]

SIC

I just have to jump in here. First the OpSpecs do not really control here. According to FAA Legal, if the company assigns a F/O then the F/O may log the flight time. The fact that the aircraft is passenger carrying or not, or the PIC and aircraft are single pilot/autopilot authorized does not effect this. Single pilot/autopilot authority is just that, an authorization, not a requirement.

On the other hand the F/O must meet the requirements of 14 CFR Part 135, take and pass a checkride under 14 CFR 135.293. So they must know emergency procedures, limitations, systems, etc.

As for making decisions and shooting approaches to minimums. The PIC is the person who will allow or not allow the F/O to make decisions. And many companies have policies in their GOM that set F/O minimums.

The interview process asks these questions to determine if the person was a PFT or seat warmer. As for wrong answers, they do not necessarily shoot you out of the water. Many companies have different speeds and procedures, usually due to different variants of the same aircraft. Just be able to explain why.