Logging instrument time

[ksu_aviator]

Thanks everybody. So i understand that i can log the instrument and night time while acting as SIC no matter who is flying.
Now I am curious from Eagle 06 post can I log PIC for the time I am the sole manipulator of the controls - I am type rated on the Beech 1900 with SIC privileges only. This means i cannot ACT as PIC but can I LOG PIC? Amish mentions I cannot in 121 but I am operating under Part 135, and this also contradicts Eagle06's post. Thank you

If I understand you, you have an SIC Type Rating? If that is the case, that is worth a little more than the paper it is printed on. It only allows you to act as an SIC and that is only needed if you leave the US Airspace.

An SIC Type rating does not qualify you to act as PIC.

If I misunderstood you, then ignore everything I just said.

In any case, I always log flight time by how it best represents my experience as a pilot. When logging instrument, I usually only logged the time when I was flying the aircraft in the clouds. However, I would not question someone that logged time when the other pilot was at the controls.

In a few years you will look back and realize how insignificant that extra .1 of actual instrument time is. My advice, don't log it. You won't need it.

 

[skyaddict]

Back in early 2001, I remember being disqualified as a candidate for hiring at Comair at an AIR Inc seminar because they had a rule requiring a minimum of 10% of total time to be instrument time (I can't remember if it allowed sim and hood time), which they claimed was a hard rule. At the time I had over 2600 hours TT but less than 150 hours of actual. Anyway, the moral of the story is that most people being hired by a place like this have to either be very generous in their definition of instrument time (I know people who have logged any flying on an IFR day, or any flying on top as instrument!), or they simply parker it up to total 10%. Comair was striking at the time so it was a non-issue for me really, but many companies have arbitrary instrument requirements, and if you only include time as pilot flying, even though as SIC you were "operating" the aircraft along with the PIC in an aircraft and/or operation requiring more than one pilot, you will lose a whopper of time that I think is legitimate according to the FARs and really, in terms of your pilot monitoring duties when you think about it. I wouldn't log approaches or landings when pilot not flying though, because there the definition specifies "sole manipulator" not "operator".

 

[MtrHedAP]

Ksu_aviator,
Yes I only have a SIC type rating, I know that means squat, in the States but I do operate in african countries. Now for those countries I dont know if any of them actually require it, but i feel that i spent alot of time and hard work earning that SIC rating. It was the same ground school, just less sim sessions and of course money. I did not pay for it.

Thanks for all the advice everyone has given. I am new to this game and have questions. I have always logged conservative but wanted to know what was standard or acceptable. Thanks again.

Cheers

 

[avbug]

To expand a little more on what's been previously said, there are really two parts to your questions in this thread. One asks if you can log time as PIC when you're not the PIC...and the answer as previously discussed is yes.

In this particular case, however, where you have only a SIC type rating, you can't log the time as PIC regardless of the rules under which the flight is being operated...be it 91, 121, or 135, even if you're sole manipulator of the controls.

In order to log PIC as sole manipulator, you need to be rated in the airplane, which means category (airplane), class (multi-engine land), and type, where a type rating is required. In this case, you don't hold a PIC type rating, and can't operate the airplane as PIC, and aren't rated for the airplane...and can't log PIC as sole manipulator.

If you were to hold the type rating, however, even when not acting as PIC, even under Parts 121 or 135, you could still log the time as PIC legally...it's just that for the professional reasons previously discussed, you shouldn't.

 

[QueensPilot]

Hey All:
Slightly different but related...I am a CFI out here in the San Joaquin Valley. You may know about the fires we have had here this summer. Earlier in the summer we were having days where the visibility was 3 miles due to smoke/haze. Well on a couple of days the reported vis was like 1 -2 miles, I cannot remember the exact number, but not legally VFR. As I had to conduct a part 141 instrument stage check on one of these days, my choices were to either cancel or file. We filed and did the 3 approaches and some other stuff required on the check. Here is my question:
I know that as a CFII I can log 'actual' and the approaches if I am teaching in actual instrument conditions. On that particular day I could see the ground but I could not see the horizon in front of me at all. I felt I was not in actual because I was not 'in the clouds.' But some colleagues told me that they would have logged actual and the approaches. So I am not sure what to do.
Regarding the above poster who said the .1 here and there does not matter: I think you are right, but early in your career, it might matter more. I am a CFI in an area that doesn't get much IMC for a good portion of the year. I am at around 1300 hours and am starting to think about the ATP. The total time is easy to come by, I hav the night, the x-c is a little harder to come by(I have 400ish) but by far the 75 actual or simulated instrument is.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Log it. If you're controlling the aircraft by referencing the instruments (no horizon, btwn layers, etc). That's what the FAA regs allow. For instance, one could legally log instrument on a night flight in VFR conditions, if it is necessary to maintain control by use of the instruments. This could be due to a moonless night, lack of lights on ground, etc.

What is really not ALLOWED is logging instrument time just cause you're on an IFR plan. Sounds obvious, but there are some pilots that do.

Hey All:
Slightly different but related...I am a CFI out here in the San Joaquin Valley. You may know about the fires we have had here this summer. Earlier in the summer we were having days where the visibility was 3 miles due to smoke/haze. Well on a couple of days the reported vis was like 1 -2 miles, I cannot remember the exact number, but not legally VFR. As I had to conduct a part 141 instrument stage check on one of these days, my choices were to either cancel or file. We filed and did the 3 approaches and some other stuff required on the check. Here is my question:
I know that as a CFII I can log 'actual' and the approaches if I am teaching in actual instrument conditions. On that particular day I could see the ground but I could not see the horizon in front of me at all. I felt I was not in actual because I was not 'in the clouds.' But some colleagues told me that they would have logged actual and the approaches. So I am not sure what to do.

Regarding the above poster who said the .1 here and there does not matter: I think you are right, but early in your career, it might matter more. I am a CFI in an area that doesn't get much IMC for a good portion of the year. I am at around 1300 hours and am starting to think about the ATP. The total time is easy to come by, I hav the night, the x-c is a little harder to come by(I have 400ish) but by far the 75 actual or simulated instrument is.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

61.51 (g)

(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

As you can see above, the term "operates" is inclusive of the SIC as well as the PIC as both are required to operate the flight. The plane can not be legally operated without BOTH crewmembers. Therefore, both may log ACTUAL and NIGHT under conditions of flight, regardless of whether you are the FP or NFP.


Oh, and I always thought that 10% rule was ridiculous.

 

[QueensPilot]

Thanks Amish!!