logging instrument approach question

[teach2fly]

can you log an instrument approach if its VMC, single pilot IFR?...assuming you're IFR current and you just shot an ILS approach down to the DH (in an IFR flight plan and cleared for the approach) and full stop landing.

 

[bigD]

Heh - I don't think so. Otherwise, maintaining my instrument currency would be SOOOO much easier!

I think the kicker here is that if it's VFR - you really should have your eyes outside the airplane instead of buried in the needles.

 

[teach2fly]

I kinda know that already...just wonderin' if there's any way around the "actual instrument conditions" phrase in the FAR

 

[JungleJetFO]

Why can't you log it? Were you IFR and did you get cleared for the approach? An instrument approach is an approach no matter what the weather. If you aren't instrument rated and flying VFR, you need a safety pilot but that is the only restriction. Now, if you shoot the approach while flying VFR, that's a different story. Don't confuse flying VMC and flying VFR. One is weather and one is rules.

 

[ArcherB]

I am pretty sure you do need to be either " IMC" or if "VMC" you need to have a saftey pilot. The reasoning is that if you are single pilot in "VMC" even though you are on a instrument flight plan you should be looking outside and maintaining visual seperation with other airplanes.

 

[JungleJetFO]

Let's be reasonable here:

I am pretty sure you do need to be either " IMC" or if "VMC" you need to have a saftey pilot. The reasoning is that if you are single pilot in "VMC" even though you are on a instrument flight plan you should be looking outside and maintaining visual seperation with other airplanes.

If you are on an IFR flight plan and you shoot a non-precision or precision approach in VMC or IMC, log it. You shot the approach, why would you not log it? Think of it this way, say you do a VOR-DME approach with a 12 mile arc, would you not log it? Who cares what the weather is? Now, when you are talking instrument currency, that's a different story, you need a certain minimum actual or simulated approaches. But in every day flying and you want to shoot an approach, it all counts toward your totals, especially if you want to put it on your resume. I get cleared for the ILS all the time at work on VMC days, but I'm logging the approach.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Re: Let's be reasonable here:

If you are on an IFR flight plan and you shoot a non-precision or precision approach in VMC or IMC, log it. You shot the approach, why would you not log it? Think of it this way, say you do a VOR-DME approach with a 12 mile arc, would you not log it? Who cares what the weather is? Now, when you are talking instrument currency, that's a different story,

I think that's the point. Logging questions =usually= (though not always) include the unstated phrase "that counts for currency or toward a certificate or rating under the FAR"

Sure you can log the approach you flew entirely in VMC. You can also log the last time you sat in Seat 33C on a 757, the drive to the airport, and the ice cream sundae you had for desert at that great restaurant last week. They just don't count for anything.

 

[bobbysamd]

Whatever floats your boat . . . .

can you log an instrument approach if its VMC, single pilot IFR?...assuming you're IFR current and you just shot an ILS approach down to the DH (in an IFR flight plan and cleared for the approach) and full stop landing.

You can log it for the sake of the approach being a detail of that flight, but unless it was in actual IMC or simulated IFR with a safety pilot, it won't count for currency.

I agree with Midlifeflyer. Most of these logging questions seem to turn on the issue of currency. The spirit of the reg is to ensure a minimum currency maintenance standard.

Another opportunity to provide my FSI Chief Pilot instrument approach logging story. Our Chief Pilot was trying to convince us instructors that we could log the approaches that our students shot as our own for the purpose of currency. I don't recall at the moment what he saw in the FARs to give him that hare-brained notion; it doesn't matter because it obviously flies in the face of common sense. Under his theory, if you're training instrument students continuously you could be perpetually current without ever executing an approach yourself! I am sure his motivation was he was too cheap to provide instructors with airplane proficiency time.

 

[A Squared]

OK, folks, here's the real answer direct from the FAA's office of chief counsel:



January 28, 1992
(no name given)

This is in response to your October 24, 1991, letter in which you asked several questions about certain Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR).

****non-pertinent text removed***

Second, you questioned how low a pilot must descend (i.e., minimum descent altitude or decision height or full stop landing) on the six instrument approaches he must log to meet the recent IFR experience requirements specified in FAR Section 61.57(e)(1)(i) (14 CFR Sec. 61.57 (e)(1)(i)). You also asked if an instrument
approach "counts" if only part of the approach is conducted in actual IFR conditions. Section 1.57(e)(1)(i) states that:

No pilot may act as pilot in command under IFR, nor in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless he has, within the past 6 calendar months - (i) In the case of an aircraft other than a glider, logged at least 6 hours of instrument time under actual or simulated IFR conditions, at least 3 of which were in flight in the category of aircraft involved, including at least six instrument approaches, or passed an instrument competency check in the category of aircraft involved.

For currency purposes, an instrument approach under Section 61.57(e)(1)(i) may be flown in either actual or simulated IFR conditions. Further, unless the instrument approach procedure must be abandoned for safety reasons, we believe the pilot must follow the instrument approach procedure to minimum descent altitude or decision height.


****non-pertinent text removed***


Please do not hesitate to contact us if you require any further information in this regard.

Sincerely,

Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel


There it is, in IMC or simulated IMC right down to the minimums, or it doesn't count. Now, if you break out 100 feet above minimums ..... well, I think that is probably close enough, but logging an entire approach flown by yourself in VMC? Where do people dream up this crap?

Speaking of dreaming up crap, there seems to be a pretty persistent notion that you can put whatever you want in your logbook, as long as you don't use it for currency, or to meet requirements for a rating....think again folks. If you put something in your logbook that ain't right, the FAA considers it falsification, regardless of what your intent is. Go take a look at the NTSB records, the FAA *does* violate pilots for falsifying thier logbooks even if they don't use the falsifications for currency or qualification. The FAA's view on this is pretty clear from the enforcement records: Don't put anything in your logbook that you're not legally entitied to log. This view has been supported on appeal to the NTSB. If the FAA thinks that you're falsifying records, any records, they *WILL* and *DO* revoke your certificates. They take this stuff seriously, very seriously. Do a search of hte NTSB opinions and orders for 61.59 (falsification) enforcement. You'll find that in *every* one the FAA went for revocation of certificates, ususally all certificates, even if they're not related to the offense. Remember folks, revocation isn't just a little 30 day vacation like a suspension. Revocation means that you aren't a pilot any more. If you want to be a pilot again you have to go through the process again.


regards

 

[Timebuilder]

Listen to Bobby and Mark here, but please ignore what Bobby's old chief pilot was saying.

Rather than just "log approaches" for their own sake, log the approaches that conform to your best reason for logging approaches at all: instrument currency.

Approaches done in VMC, where you as a single pilot have the regulatory responsibility to see and avoid other aircraft, should not be logged for currency because if you are "heads down" the whole time you are not only being unsafe, you are also breaking a regulation. Being on an IFR flight plan makes no difference if the conditions are VMC.

You are left with two ways to log for currency in an airplane: under VMC conditions with a safety pilot, while "simulating" instrument conditions, and in IMC conditions.

If pilots could log approaches done any old way, I could have logged the DME A into Teterboro three times a week!