Logging Instructor Time while solo ?

[milflyboy]

I remember from my time as an IFF IP at Sheppard AFB that people would often log Instructor time while flying as Direct Support for a student. Is that acceptable practise ? and how does it look in ones logbook that you have solo and instructor time in the same row

You did provide a great deal of instruction while flying as a Direct Support. Both before during and after the flight, but is logging it legal?

 

[hawg2hawk]

I remember from my time as an IFF IP at Sheppard AFB that people would often log Instructor time while flying as Direct Support for a student. Is that acceptable practise ? and how does it look in ones logbook that you have solo and instructor time in the same row

You did provide a great deal of instruction while flying as a Direct Support. Both before during and after the flight, but is logging it legal?

Before everyone starts hammering your nuts for asking this, I'll point out for our civilian audience that you mean instructing a solo student from another aircraft that you are flying solo yourself.
All of my instructor time is logged this way in the A-10. That is valid military instructor time.
Whether that time can be legally logged in your civilian logbook as instructor time is open to debate, because there is no FAA mil equivalency for an instructor rating. I'd say no, but I'd still put it on my resume as "military instructor" time. Fedex, for example, asks specifically for mil instructor time on their app website.
By the way, as the IP in this situation you shouldn't be logging solo time anyway. You were a current and qualified AT-38 IP at the time, right? The only one who should log solo time is a student who is not carrying a qual form 8 in the aircraft.

 

[MarineGrunt]

Don't mean to hijack but...

Can "other time" count as "total time" in the civillian world?

 

[hawg2hawk]

Don't mean to hijack but...

Can "other time" count as "total time" in the civillian world?

"Other" time is worthless as far as the FAA and prospective employers are concerned.

 

[milflyboy]

By the way, as the IP in this situation you shouldn't be logging solo time anyway. You were a current and qualified AT-38 IP at the time, right? The only one who should log solo time is a student who is not carrying a qual form 8 in the aircraft.

Why not? Where does it say you can't log solo if you are the sole occupant aboard the aircraft?

 

[Metro752]

ehhh, word technicality. Solo is for students, PIC is for rated in the aircraft? I could be wrong cuz I am a noob.

 

[milflyboy]

Well, solo students are also PIC according to Part 61 even though they are not rated ) But of course not according to Part 1

Where does it say in the regs to stop logging Solo time just because you are rated in the Airplane?

You are probably right, I just want to know where I can find it.

 

[Mongoose69]

# Instructors vs. # Students

Just to clarify for 2 seat aircraft (This it the way we did it in the Strike Eagle, and I'm pretty sure it's the approved AF way). The number of "instructors" (i.e. aircrew logging instructor time) in a flight can never be more than the number of "students".

For example. If an IP and an Instructor WSO were in the same jet, leading around two "crew solo" students in the #2 jet, (I know, wierd concept for you single seaters. But sometimes 2 craniums are worse than one) we would both log instructor time. But If I were flying as #3 on an ACM hop, I was an "extra" instructor, and couldn't log IP time. It was logged as Direct Support/CT.

Cheers,
Mongoose

 

[RedDogC130]

Why not according to Part I?? Doen't the student sign for the A/C when solo??? I recall doing that. I logged it as PIC.

 

[milflyboy]

Just to clarify for 2 seat aircraft (This it the way we did it in the Strike Eagle, and I'm pretty sure it's the approved AF way). The number of "instructors" (i.e. aircrew logging instructor time) in a flight can never be more than the number of "students".

For example. If an IP and an Instructor WSO were in the same jet, leading around two "crew solo" students in the #2 jet, (I know, wierd concept for you single seaters. But sometimes 2 craniums are worse than one) we would both log instructor time. But If I were flying as #3 on an ACM hop, I was an "extra" instructor, and couldn't log IP time. It was logged as Direct Support/CT.

Cheers,
Mongoose

I have seen guys logging IP when flying Direct Support for a student even though he had another IP in the trunk.
Not the way it should be, but I have seen students getting more instruction from the DS than from the IP in the back. Both before, during and after the sortie. You've probably met IPs like that too ;o)

And yes, the scenario you describe is extremely weird to me

 

[milflyboy]

Why not according to Part I?? Doen't the student sign for the A/C when solo??? I recall doing that. I logged it as PIC.

I don't think I did when I flew Solo T-37/T-38 (It has been a while). But I do know the IP signed a release or something.
This has been discussed a lot of times on this board

 

[Zulu]

How you keep your logbook is purely a matter of personal technique -- as long as you can extract the information that the feds and/or you interviewing airline require then you can do anything you'd like.
That being said, here's my personal technique that didn't get any funny looks during two airline interviews: First of all, none of my logbooks (I'm on my 3rd now) has a "Solo" column; they have "Instructor", "Dual", "PIC (including Solo)" and "SIC" columns. Dual and SIC are self-explanatory; the only caveat I'll add is that I didn't log any of my "Secondary" time in the F-15B/D as SIC. My reasoning there was that I wasn't a required crewmember, so it technically didn't count. It amounted to less than 10 hours anyway, so it really didn't matter.
If I was logging "Primary" time in the Eagle, then it went in the "PIC" column. If I was logging "IP" or "EP" time then it went in the "Instructor" column. This didn't matter if I was instructing from another aircraft or in the trunk of a B/D model. Now, while you can technically log PIC whenever you log instructor time, I elected to keep them separate because that's the way it's listed in AFORMS and it allowed my to do a quick cross-check whenever I wanted to compare my logbook to AFORMS.
Speaking of crosschecks, I'd also check at the bottom of each page to ensure that "Instructor" + "Dual" + "PIC" + "SIC" = "Total Time" and that "Single Engine" + "Multi-Engine" = "Total Time." Caught quite a few math errors that way that would have been tough to find later when filling out applications.
Each airline will require that you present your flight time in a slightly different way, and, speaking from experience, my "system" made it easy for me to break out the information each of them wanted.
Take it FWIW,

Z

 

[hawg2hawk]

Why not? Where does it say you can't log solo if you are the sole occupant aboard the aircraft?

I guess you could, but why bother? You're either the PIC (or the instructor) or you aren't. I haven't seen any employment apps that ask for solo time.
My logging technique is about the same as zulu's - except i should probably go back and add my solo hours as PIC. I wasn't aware of that change.

 

[milflyboy]

I guess you could, but why bother? You're either the PIC (or the instructor) or you aren't. I haven't seen any employment apps that ask for solo time.
My logging technique is about the same as zulu's - except i should probably go back and add my solo hours as PIC. I wasn't aware of that change.

The only place I have been asked to fill in Solo time is on the FAA Form 8710-1 Part III Record of Pilot time that I filled out when getting my ATP.

 

[Zulu]

I always viewed the "Solo" block on the FAA 8710-1 as being student solo time only. Looking at the way the form's set up, I'm pretty confident that's the intent.

Z

 

[milflyboy]

I always viewed the "Solo" block on the FAA 8710-1 as being student solo time only. Looking at the way the form's set up, I'm pretty confident that's the intent.

Z

That is probably the intent. I have just not found a place where it says not to log it after you are rated. I guess it doesn't reallly matter after you fullfill the solo X-country requirement.