Logging IFR in VMC

[jethro]

Silly question - you're flying at night between two overcast cloud layers and meet VFR minimums (1000 above/500 below/3 miles etc...); since its nighttime you have no outside visual reference though. Is this time loggable as actual instrument since you are flying "solely by reference to instruments?"

And just for kicks, lets assume a non-instrument rated pilot flew into those conditions, never actually entering a cloud. Is that pilot legally flying VFR?

 

[Vik]

Yes, you are legally flying VFR. You cannot log actual instrument time.

Even if you were in clear wx between layers and didn't meet the 1000ft abv, 500blo, 3mi, you'd still be flying VFR, not logging actual except it might be illegal depending on airspace.

There isn't a reg out there that says it is illegal.

 

[Vandal]

But the FAR's do not define instrument flight that way. They don't say "if you meet vfr could clearances", they say "if you are flying solely by reference to your instruments". One could argue that at night with no discernible horizon you are definetly flying solely with the instruments. Anyone have a definitive answer?

 

[Vik]

Part 1 defines "IFR conditions" as "weather conditions below the minimum for flight rules under visual flight rules"

He is in visual flight rules as he is in not in the clouds and is between layers with adequate separation in between.

So he is in VFR conditions.

Whether or not he uses his instruments or not doesn't matter.

He cannot log actual in VFR conditions. His situation does not meet the definition of "IFR conditions." I doubt an examiner, FSDO or even airline interviewer would accept, "I logged actual in VFR conditions because I was flying by instruments only"

 

[Buzo]

I was told to log it as actual by an airline captain who works on the interview board for his airline. IFR is flight rules, not logging. If your only source of a horizon is your instruments, you can log it as instrument time. There is no definition saying you can only log actual if you are below mins because the mins change between airspace and altitude.

 

[V-1]

I was told to log it as actual by an airline captain who works on the interview board for his airline. IFR is flight rules, not logging. If your only source of a horizon is your instruments, you can log it as instrument time. There is no definition saying you can only log actual if you are below mins because the mins change between airspace and altitude.

I'd suggest your friend brush up on the basic FAR's. FAR 61.51 (g)(1) reads:

A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under simulated or actual conditions.

This also means flying over water extending to the horizon, under an overcast layer at night with visibility unlimited is not instrument flight time, even though it would be wise to have some instrument skills before putting yourself in this scenario.

No matter how grey you want to make it, actual conditions does not mean you have to use your instruments to fly. Actual conditions, as was pointed out earlier, means below VFR minimums for the airspace being flown in. Yes the minimums change between airspace. So then does the definition of actual conditions based on the airspace you're currently flying in.

I used to chuckle when I'd hang around the local FBO sometimes. Pilots who I'd heard use every excuse in the book for why they were still legally flying VFR when the weather was legally IMC suddenly had a different definition of IMC while they worked on their instrument rating. I used to tell them that just because there's a cloud somewhere in the sky doesn't mean they're IMC.

Hope this helps.

 

[Vik]

I envy those of you, like V-1, that actually quote regs. I wish I had a time, patience and motivation to look them up instead of just stating my opinion blindly. =)

 

[V-1]

Yeah, I really need to find some new hobbies.

Anyone need a guitar player for a blues, rock, alternative, or speed metal band in the Cincinnati area?

 

[avbug]

A great deal of misunderstanding exists about this subject. One cannot log instrument time simply because one is operating under instrument flight rules. One can be operating under VFR, in instrument conditions. Therefore, one may or may not be able to log instrument flight when operating IFR, and one may or may not be able to log instrument flight time when oeprating under VFR. Let's explore why.

We'll also look at the regulation, and a legal interpretation by the FAA Chief Counsel which covers this.

The logging of instrument time is covered by 14 CFR 61.51(g). One may log instrument time only when operating the aircraft by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions. Also, a flight instructor may log instrument time when instructing under instrument conditions. One need not be flying under instrument flight rules, to be in instrument conditions. One may be flying under VFR, and be in instrument conditions, such as flight betwen layers, flight at night over the desert or the ocean on a moonless night, etc. Any conditions which require flight by reference to instruments are instrument conditions, and flight time spent in these conditions, or any conditions which require flight by reference to instruments, is loggable as instrument flight time.

This has nothing to do with being below VFR minimums. One may have adequate cloud clearance and unlimited visibility, but without the ability to see, one may still be required to fly by reference to instruments, and the FAA has clearly set forth in a legal interpretation by the Chief Counsel (Cassady, Nov., 1984) that this constitutes instrument flight time, and may be logged as such.

Vik correctly pointed out that Part 1.1 defines "IFR Conditions" as conditions less than VFR. However, with respect to the logging of instrument flight time, 61.51(g)(1) does not say "IFR conditions," but rather "instrument conditions." There is a big difference.

"IFR conditions" refers to instrument flight rules, while "instrument conditions" applies to the actual conditions of flight. IFR conditions are indeed conditions less than VFR, while instrument conditions occur any time that the aircraft must be flown by reference to instruments.

The following Legal Interpretation clearly defines the position of the Administrator on the subject, and clarifies the regulation. It is legally defensible, and represents the offical stance of the Administration.

Note in the following interpretation that Assistant Chief Counsel Cassady comments that a pilot logging flight under actual instrument conditions should note in a log entry the reasons that the flight was conducted in this manner, and should include a reference as to the type of conditions.

For those referencing to the actual interpretation, please note that I have truncated this response, and edited out the unrelevant second reply to a question about lapsed instrument currency.

November 7, 1984
Mr. Joseph P. Carr

Dear Mr. Carr:

This is in response to your letter asking questions about instrument flight time.

First, you ask for an interpretation of Section 61.51(c)(4) of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) regarding the logging of instrument flight time. You ask whether, for instance, a flight over the ocean on a moonless night without a discernible horizon could be logged as actual instrument flight time.

As you know, Section 61.51(c)(4) provides rules for the logging of instrument flight time which may be used to meet the requirements of a certificate or rating, or to meet the recent flight experience requirements of Part 61. That section provides in part, that a pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he or she operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual (instrument meteorological conditions (imc)) or simulated instrument flight conditions. "Simulated" instrument conditions occur when the pilot's vision outside of the aircraft is intentionally restricted, such as by a hood or goggles. "Actual" instrument flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. Typically, these conditions involve adverse weather conditions.

To answer your first question, actual instrument conditions may occur in the case you described a moonless night over the ocean with no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. The determination as to whether flight by reference to instruments is necessary is somewhat subjective and based in part on the sound judgment of the pilot. Note that, under Section 61.51(b)(3), the pilot must log the conditions of the flight. The log should include the reasons for determining that the flight was under actual instrument conditions in case the pilot later would be called on to prove that the actual instrument flight time logged was legitimate.

Sincerely,
/s/
John H. Cassady
Assistant Chief counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division

 

[Buzo]

I'd suggest your friend brush up on the basic FAR's. FAR 61.51 (g)(1) reads:

A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under simulated or actual conditions.

This also means flying over water extending to the horizon, under an overcast layer at night with visibility unlimited is not instrument flight time, even though it would be wise to have some instrument skills before putting yourself in this scenario.

No matter how grey you want to make it, actual conditions does not mean you have to use your instruments to fly. Actual conditions, as was pointed out earlier, means below VFR minimums for the airspace being flown in. Yes the minimums change between airspace. So then does the definition of actual conditions based on the airspace you're currently flying in.

I used to chuckle when I'd hang around the local FBO sometimes. Pilots who I'd heard use every excuse in the book for why they were still legally flying VFR when the weather was legally IMC suddenly had a different definition of IMC while they worked on their instrument rating. I used to tell them that just because there's a cloud somewhere in the sky doesn't mean they're IMC.

Hope this helps.

I could tell my friend, or I should say my Uncle that he needs to brush up on his regs, but as AvBug has so nicely given backing to say that he is right I probably don't need to do that. I know what the regs say, and so does my Uncle. He isn't number 15 on the seniority list at his major because he doesn't know the regs. IFR and VFR are rules, IMC and VMC are conditions of flight. they are vastly different.