logging dual received & PIC

[Sol Rosenberg]

Here's one for the flight instructors out there

Im preparing for a job interview and have tons of time. However, my PIC time is not adding up right. I found that in my first logbook when I was receiving lots of training for my ratings, I did not log my time as dual AND pic. Later, I had an instructor who said if you're at least a private pilot, you can log your training flights as both dual received and pic (if you're the sole manip. of the controls.)

Sample: I'm on a 1 hr training flight in a C172 with my instructor instructing me for my instrument rating. Can I log 1 hour of PIC as well as 1 hour of dual received?

thanks in advance...
sol

(also, for all of my solo time and solo xcountry time prior to receiving my private is NOT pic, it's solo, correct??)

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Sample: I'm on a 1 hr training flight in a C172 with my instructor instructing me for my instrument rating. Can I log 1 hour of PIC as well as 1 hour of dual received?

Type of operation- Receiving flight instruction under Actual or Simulated Instrument Conditions, (Private and Commercial Pilots)

Type of flight time that can be logged- PIC, Training received, and instrument, Actual or Simulated.

Additional requirements/ comments- PIC- The pilot receiving the instruction must be sole manipulator of the controls.

(also, for all of my solo time and solo xcountry time prior to receiving my private is NOT pic, it's solo, correct??)

Type of operation- Sole occupant of aircraft, (student pilot)

Type of flight time that can be logged- Solo and PIC

Additional requirements/ comments- PIC - current endorsement under 61.87- must be undergoing training for pilot certificate or rating.

Hope this helps,
TA

 

[midlifeflyer]

Later, I had an instructor who said if you're at least a private pilot, you can log your training flights as both dual received and pic (if you're the sole manip. of the controls.)

That is correct, so long as it is in an aircraft that you are rated for. So, for example, if you have an ASEL rating, you could log PIC in any single-engine land airplane (unless it requires a type rating) but =not= in an AMEL or an ASES

Sample: I'm on a 1 hr training flight in a C172 with my instructor instructing me for my instrument rating. Can I log 1 hour of PIC as well as 1 hour of dual received?

Yes

(also, for all of my solo time and solo xcountry time prior to receiving my private is NOT pic, it's solo, correct??)

The dual time is not PIC time, but the solo time is. When the FAA rewrote Part 61 in 1997, it made it clear that a student pilot may log solo time as PIC time. 61.51(e)(4). (And yes, solo time you had before the re-write took effect counts also)

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

ok...thx for the help.
now lets say that I'm a instrument rated commercial pilot (SEL) and I'm training with an instructor for my multiengine rating in a seneca. even though I am the sole manipulator operating the twin engine a/c, I cannot log that as PIC in addition to dual received because I'm not yet rated in the twin engine aircraft, so it will be only dual received, correct?

So, the day I took my multiengine checkride is the day I could start logging multi PIC??

thx again!!

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

ok...thx for the help.
now lets say that I'm a instrument rated commercial pilot (SEL) and I'm training with an instructor for my multiengine rating in a seneca. even though I am the sole manipulator operating the twin engine a/c, I cannot log that as PIC in addition to dual received because I'm not yet rated in the twin engine aircraft, so it will be only dual received, correct?

So, the day I took my multiengine checkride is the day I could start logging multi PIC??

thx again!!

Yeah, unless you were rated or solo with the proper endorsements, no PIC can be logged.

That's a good question though, on the checkride can you begin logging PIC? You're not yet rated.... Anyone?

 

[midlifeflyer]

[That's a good question though, on the checkride can you begin logging PIC? You're not yet rated.... Anyone?

The checkride is a kind of weird situation. By regulation, the applicant, even a primary student pilot, is the pilot in command. The Examiner is a "special" passenger who the student is allowed to carry. See 61.47

Because of this anomaly, it's common for the applicant, who is acting as PIC and is the sole manipulator of the controls, to log PIC for the checkride. There's probably no real basis for it if you look at 61.51 (the known universe of logging), but I doubt that the FAA cares. Besides, if the student doesn't log PIC, then no one does, and that's even sillier.

 

[avbug]

No anomoly.

14 CFR 61.47(c) specifically states that during the practical test the applicant and examiner (and any other occupants authorized to be on board, by the examiner) are not subject to the requirements or limitations for carrying passengers.

During a practical test, unless by agreement between the applicant and examiner an arrangement is made to the contrary, the applicant IS the pilot in command, and should log pilot-in-command for the duration of the flight.

The regulation is quite clear on this.

As far as balancing your logbooks; it's true that you can log PIC while receiving instruction, when rated in the aircraft and acting as sole manipulator of the controls. However, many firms wish to see that instruction received, SIC, and PIC add up to total time. If you're logging time as both "dual" and PIC, the columns won't add up. I've always included in my logs only that time as instruction received, in the totals, that doesn't fit either PIC or SIC.

If I can log the time as PIC while receiving instruction, I will show it as a line item for instruction received, but it won't show up in the totals at the bottom of the page. In this manner, my logs always balance when adding PIC to instruction received to SIC..

You can log instruction received as a line item, but don't need to include it in the running totals.

I do the same with FE time. I have a separate column for FE time. It's not pilot time, or any othe time, so it stays in it's own columns. While the specific line entry for a flight as a FE may be reflected as total time, it won't show up at the bottom of the page. It's only there for a reference on that one line. The FE time isn't reflected as total time, or any other time.

I do the same for any FTD or Simulator time. It's logged to show the training received, but it doesn't show up in any other total aside from the synthetic trainer column in the logbook. It's not reflected as instrument experience, or any kind of experience except for that one spot in the logbook, and it doesn't interfere with or contaminate any other totals.

 

[midlifeflyer]

No anomoly.

General Rule: student pilot may not carry passengers or act as PIC unless solo.

Special checkride rule: student pilot may act as PIC and fly with a passenger

Meriam-Webster Dictionary:
anom·a·ly
Pronunciation: &-'nä-m&-lE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -lies
2 : deviation from the common rule : IRREGULARITY

 

[standaman]

Know I have seen the REGS quoted a great deal in this forum but not the dictionary.

 

[350DRIVER]

The student can and does log the Pvt checkride time as PIC regardless of the fact that they are not yet rated in the aircraft. I have yet to meet any DPE that will "act" as PIC for legality issues, etc. This point is usually made quite clear at the start of the checkride. Even if the student busts the ride it is still logged as PIC/solo time NOT as dual...


3 5 0

 

[nosehair]

What have I got myself into?

'magine that!...quoting from a Dictionary!...whut kinda people we got here?...?

 

[avbug]

Apparently people who like to argue, rather than address the topic.

There is no abberation here; it's been spelled out this way in the regulation for decades, and hasn't changed much.

I get a kick sometimes out of folks who strive to correct my English or take potshots at my education. For the record, I have none. I'm self taught, never made it to school, and flying is about all I've done.

I did a little correspondence schooling with Embry on the net, and dropped it due to work constraints. But it was fun while it lasted.

For an uneducated bonehead, I imagine I do okay.

 

[350DRIVER]

avbug,

You have more experience in one finger than most have in their entire body who frequent this board. I get a kick outta some of these guys calling you out, fortunately your credentials, accomplishments, career, etc, speak volumes.

It is always a pleasure to read what you post as I am sure most will agree.


enough said,

3 5 0

 

[midlifeflyer]

Apparently people who like to argue, rather than address the topic.

I agree.

So let me ask you a small question. Exactly what did you disagree with in the content of my earlier post except the use of the word "anomaly" to describe the special rule for the checkride?

Or were you just arguing for the sake of arguing?