Logging Approaches

[buxflyr]

This may be sort of a common sense question, but there are so many questions of people logging different sorts of time, I thought I would ask.

I do not log approaches if I am the non-flying pilot on the leg, but does anyone log approaches if you are the non-flying pilot? Say for instance your flight did the ILS into ORD, but the other guy was the actual flying pilot. Is it illegal to log the approach for currency? Thanks fellow FIers.

 

[MarineGrunt]

If you fly it, you log it. If you don't fly it you don't log it. Same with landings and instrument.

 

[flyf15]

Although I definitely cannot claim to know for sure how this is supposed to be done, here is my personal opinion of the matter. I log approaches under both situations.. PF and PNF. This is because, even when PNF, I am a required crewmember during this approach, performing required duties (approach preparation and PNF portions of the profile).

It doesn't really matter though, the only time logging approaches really matters is for currency. Even if you only logged your PF ones, you'd still have no problem being current. So, either is fine, and I believe that as long as you can explain your reasoning for however you do it, nobody should care.

 

[ReverseSensing]

As flyf15 says, since it's for currency only, I let my company worry about tracking landings and approaches. I've got better things to do, like rubbing lotion on the captain's feet.

 

[bugchaser]

Who cares?!? Enjoy you time off instead of worrying about logging your time.

 

[paulsalem]

Check out this thread for a good discussion about this topic:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=2558&highlight=actual+instrument

 

[shamrock]

If you fly it, you log it. If you don't fly it you don't log it. Same with landings and instrument.

So just out of curiosity, how do you log night time when you're PNF? Both night and instrument are conditions of flight.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

I knew a guy who was a 737 first officer and happened to have a 737 type rating. He decided he would log the legs he flew as PIC time.
My interpretation is that 2 people can't log pic time for the same flight. (I'm talking 121 line flying) This guy wasn't the captain, didn't sign the flight release and wasnt' responsible for the flight yet he thought it was his right to log his legs as PIC time.

 

[Tram]

That'd be a tough one to explain to a future employer..

 

[gmsguy]

Well, aren't the requirements to log PIC:
1.) Sole manipulator of the controls and,
2.) Appropriately rated in the aircraft.
I don't see any exclusion for 121 flying or am I missing something.

 

[Starscream]

I knew a guy who was a 737 first officer and happened to have a 737 type rating. He decided he would log the legs he flew as PIC time.
My interpretation is that 2 people can't log pic time for the same flight. (I'm talking 121 line flying) This guy wasn't the captain, didn't sign the flight release and wasnt' responsible for the flight yet he thought it was his right to log his legs as PIC time.

Errrr.......almost. He can log PIC time IAW part 61, because the section of part 61 that deals with logging flight time does not differentiate between flying under FAR 91/121/135, etc. Think of it this way..........

The 737 type rated FO (no ATP) logs his legs as PIC. Fine, ok. He then goes for an ATP checkride and presents his logbook to Mr. FAA inspector/DPE who then looks it over. All his PIC time logged in the 73 was as the sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft for which he had the appropriate category/class/type ratings. FAA inspector/DPE is happy and the 737 FO gets his ATP.

Fast forward now to the same 737 FO's interview with Southwest. For the airlines, they only consider FAR part 1 PIC time, which is defined as the person who was directly responsible for, and the final authority to, the safe operation of the aircraft. Since the 737 FO was not acting as the PIC for those flights (even though he was perfectly legal to LOG PIC time), Southwest disregards those hours and sends him home with no job offer.

The FAR's rules for logging PIC, and what the airlines CONSIDER PIC time, differ. In part 61, it says you can log it if you're..........
1. Acting as CFI
2. Sole manipulator of controls on a/c for which you have appropriate category/class/type ratings
3. Acting PIC (IAW FAR 1; definition of PIC which is pilot responsible for a flight, etc, ) of a flight requiring more than one pilot under the regulations for which the flight is conducted (this is what allows a safety pilot and the guy under the hood to log PIC)
4. ATP acting as PIC of a flight requiring ATP certificate to be PIC (121/135 flight)
5. Flying solo

Under any of the five examples above, a pilot can log PIC time to meet the aeronautical experience requirements for a certificate or rating under part 61. And it in no way precludes 2 pilots from logging PIC on one flight. But just because it meets the above requirements does not mean SWA/FDX/UPS/etc. have to accept it for their hiring criteria. For the these carriers, only hours logged as the pilot directly responsible for, and the final authority to, the safe operation of the aircarft (signed for the aircraft, acted as PIC, etc.) count to meet their minimums. Hope this helps.

 

[Tram]

Well, aren't the requirements to log PIC:
1.) Sole manipulator of the controls and,
2.) Appropriately rated in the aircraft.
I don't see any exclusion for 121 flying or am I missing something.

Generally PIC of a 121 aircraft is he what be signin' for the aircraft..

Usually the "well, I don't see any exclusion to the rule in the book" things don't work out so well in interviews..

 

[gmsguy]

Tram,
I believe most airlines that require 121 PIC make a distinction on their application under PIC time (i.e., 121 PIC). I would feel very comfortable explaining why I logged PIC on a 737 if I was type rated and sole manipulator of the controls. However, if they asked for 121 PIC, I would not include any time not acting as PIC (i.e., first officer).

 

[Tram]

Good point..

 

[Midnight Flyer]

As a FO, I would morally have a hard time logging pic if I wasn't the one who signed the flight release, even if I have a 737 type rating. Realistically, as an fo, I'm pretty much not responsible for jack $hit.
​

As another poster said, on a job application, most airlines recognize "121 PIC" time only if you're a Captain. They do that for a reason. They don't want these punk fo's getting a type rating in the aircraft they fly copilot in, then logging pic for every leg that they're "sole manipulator".
We all know that being the Pilot In Command of a 121 airliner is more than just sitting in the left seat, steering the aircraft as the "sole manipulator of the controls." These first officers logging pic from the right seat when it's their leg are manipulating the system.
If you want to log this "pic" time for the purpose of bragging to your Grandkids that you have a billion hours of Captain time in an rj, I guess that's up to you.
The only other reason I can come up with for why a fo would try to log pic is the hopes of getting an interview at SWA by presenting them with a logbook filled with your faux 1000 121 pic time.

 

[Starscream]

Midnight Flyer........

I absolutely hear what you're saying.........

My point is that a type rated FO can LOG PIC on his/her legs to fulfill the experience requirements for a certificate (ATP) or rating under part 61 without any repercussions or scrutiny from the FAA. It's perfectly legal under FAR 61. Beyond that, though (SWA/FDX/UPS interview), I certainly wouldn't present hours logged under those circumstances as PIC time.

 

[Stuckerdud]

If you did not complete Captain OE you are not qualified to be PIC. For example, at one time I was an Inflight Relief Officer (IRO) on 757 and A320 aircraft. I have type ratings on both aircraft but never completed Captain OE. When I occupied the Captain's seat I did not log PIC time. Instead, I have a column in my logbook labeled "IRO". Another guide to use is "who signed the release". If it wasn't you, you are not the PIC. That's it. Sorry Mikey - you kool-aid drinkin' yutz!

 

[vectorvictor]

Tram,
I believe most airlines that require 121 PIC make a distinction on their application under PIC time (i.e., 121 PIC). I would feel very comfortable explaining why I logged PIC on a 737 if I was type rated and sole manipulator of the controls. However, if they asked for 121 PIC, I would not include any time not acting as PIC (i.e., first officer).

Here's an idea for you. Wait to upgrade and earn your 121 PIC time like the rest of us. Just a suggestion.

VV

 

[blueridge71]

I knew a guy who was a 737 first officer and happened to have a 737 type rating. He decided he would log the legs he flew as PIC time.
My interpretation is that 2 people can't log pic time for the same flight. (I'm talking 121 line flying) This guy wasn't the captain, didn't sign the flight release and wasnt' responsible for the flight yet he thought it was his right to log his legs as PIC time.

FAR 61 allows the manipulator of the controls to log PIC if he is rated in the aircraft.

FAR 1 is captain time.

Log each if you like, but don't mix the two up.

Southwest, among others, specifically states that PIC time has to comply with the FAR 1 definition (signing for the aircraft).

 

[gmsguy]

Ok. But can you show me where in the regulations it defines that the pilot in command is the captain?