logbook confusion

[StaticWick]

Hi yall,
Here is the proverbial logbook question.

Everyone knows the King Air is certified single pilot, any PIC log time done by sole-manipulator of the controls or if the PIC is under the hood (simulated inst.) and you have a MEL (and if needed typed if in 300, 350 series). The insurance company could say you can’t fly by yourself (PIC) unless you have King Air trained MEI or a pilot current with hours required by the insurance company and training. The insurance company doesn’t have a say in how we log our pilots logbooks so that's the no-brainer part of my question. (but that would be a different thread topic than this one…)

What happens when the FAA certifies that same King Air Part 135 as a two pilot operation? Meaning when the plane flies only two current 135 trained flight crewmembers in the two front seats. Do you log SIC time now when not PIC even though the plane was initially certified single pilot? Under Part 91 I’d say, “No only acting as sole manipulator.” We are going to check with our POI at the FSDO for FAA covering, as this discussion has caused some head scratching on our part.

Thanks,
SW

 

[LongBoarder]

Part 135

1) Is the PIC of the aircraft going to have an autopilot check under part 135?

Yes) Then you can only log SIC when you are the sole manipulator of the controls, assuming that you have a valid .293 as an SIC in that aircraft.

No) If the PIC does not have an autopilot check then you are a required crewmember on all 135 flights and can log SIC at all time, even if you are not sole manipulator. I would reference part 135.293 PIC had no autopilot check in your personal log book.

2) Here is the bummer part, unelss you fly 135 on every leg, you run into problems logging SIC in a King Air as it is a single pilot airplane. Hopefully the PIC is also a CFI/MEI who would be willing to sign your log book.

Good luck..... The best part about all of it is that you are going to gain expirence in turbine aircraft, heavy weather, & high density airports. Be a sponge, learn what you can, and slowly build your confidence. It will seem really easy from the right seat, but I will promise you when you slide over to the other seat, you will forget everything you ever learned.... for about 30 seconds.

LB

 

[StaticWick]

Re: Part 135

2) Here is the bummer part, unelss you fly 135 on every leg, you run into problems logging SIC in a King Air as it is a single pilot airplane. Hopefully the PIC is also a CFI/MEI who would be willing to sign your log book.

These flights are in a King Air 200 & 100 under 12,500 so it just a multi-engine. (For airplanes over, for example I have been given dual in the Kingf Air 350 for 106 hrs. ) But you are talking about the deadheads having to log SIC as well even though I would be sole manipulator of the controls? Right?

 

[Flying Illini]

If you are deadhead and operating under Pt. 91 then you would be able to log PIC during the time that you are the Sole Manipulator. (as long as the aircraft is under 12,5 and you have your ME rating, etc.)

 

[mike1mc]

I think a High Altitude Endorsement will be required to log PIC in the King Air as well.

 

[flydude]

Well guys, I've got to disagree with Longboarder.

Start out by reading 135.101.

This states that "no person may operate an aircraft carrying passengers under IFR unless there is a SIC in the aircraft."

Now 135.105 Paragraph (a) "a person MAY operate an aircraft without a second in command, if it equipped with an operative approved autopilot system and the use of that system is authorized by appropriate operations specifications."

The key word here is "may". It does not say you have to use this exception always and you can never use an SIC, it means you can use the autopilot exception if the certificate holder does not choose to use an SIC.

If the certificate holder chooses to use an SIC that has been properly trained and has completed a 135 SIC checkride, then you can log SIC time on 135 legs only. You also can log PIC time on any leg you acted as sole manipulator.

Also read 61.51 paragraphs (e)(PIC sole manipulator rule) and (f).

paragraph (f)(2) in short reads - to log SIC you have to be properly rated for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

And Yes, you will need a high altitude endorsement to log PIC time.

 

[LongBoarder]

Disagree

You can not log PIC under Part 135 unless you have a .293 PIC check.... no ifs ands or buts....

You can not fly single pilot with Pax on board unless you have an approved operable autopilot (3 axis), and a A/P check for the pic in the last 12 months.

Without the A/P you are required to have an SIC that also is legal.... and qualified under part 135.293. Not to mention the aircraft also must have a CVR, something that is required for two pilot crews.... but that is only the case when two pilots are required for the operation.

If you are operating with two pilots... and the aircraft is missing the CVR... or the PIC has a current A/P check and the A/P is functioning properly.... you are not required and there fore can only log SIC for the legs that you are sole manipulator of the controls under FAR135. Under Part 91 you are good to go and log it however you want.

Now.... if the aircraft is equiped with a CVR..... and the PIC does not have a current A/P check.... or the A/P is inop... a then becomes a required crewmember. And you log SIC anytime you are in the plane.

This is all per the Boise FSDO.... as I was once in this exact position.

Flame away.

LB

 

[Rick1128]

Each FSDO has their own opinions. The opinion that really counts is the opinion of the FAA legal office. According to the opinions I have seen, if a FO is assigned to the Part 135 flight, he can log the flight time. It makes no difference if the a/c has an autopilot or not or if the PIC is qualified to use the ap or not. The operator has made the flight a two pilot flight, by the assignment.

The biggest question will always be during an interview. Show your 8410s and state that the company assigned you to the flight.

 

[StaticWick]

Each FSDO has their own opinions....

Thank you all for your input. These flames, arguments, justifications and more have been brought up at the office. I did pass this along to our DO and CP/Pres as they both want to stay out of hot water as well but find continuity among all the pilots and in logging their own logbooks. I don't want to cut it short as the discussion is good but LB and Rick both said it best as we are going to bring this before our POI and see what he says and follow accordingly.

On the personal front, I am being in-house trained at the moment for the .293 SIC check as this is the only qualification I am lacking. Next fall go to formal training with the DO and receive a formal CRM (insurance co request) and King Air PIC training at that time I should have enough hours then do the second approach, and anythng else and take home the ATP as well. I am keeping separate logbook records that I wouldn’t want to show as formal-legal logged flight time in accordance with FAR’s but to show I was doing something that day other than nothing to a future employer. I am saving copies of duty logs to back up my separate logbook time then when the next employer looks at my records I will let him make the decision whether to weigh the experience for sitting their being a Forward-Ballast-Environmental-Communications-Specialist or file those extra hours in the waste basket. Frankly, I think I am wasting my time with it as after I have logged (in the FAR logbook) 3000 TT and 1000 PIC turbine in King Air’s do I really need to watch those 200 hours or so being faithful to the duties as FBECS?

Fly Safe,

SW
PS. When you go for simplistic laws to complicated, the more laws we amend and pile on top of one another the more opportunity for loopholes and confusion to exist. It gets even worse when a governing agency of those laws can't handle the ones it has. Pretty soon the CFI will need to be a Federal Lawyer to teach FAR's to his/her students. Hence these finally regulations for the fractionals will be interesting to read in comparison with the other regs.

IMHO - It would give us a lot less to talk about if the XYZ FSDO acted the same to any regulations as the ABC FSDO in the USA. (I guess that’s the rust that forms in (proper wording: "binds") a Federal agency.)
-I'm done with my 2 cents

 

[boredpilot]

You guys need to relax.............

I flew single pilot for a 135 Air ambulance for a couple years and I had to do the whole A/P check every six months. The fly dude was right. You can log SIC only if its required by type certification or under the operation (ex. A 135 operation without an approved autopilot to be used in place of a SIC). If you don't have that, then your out of luck, even if the insurance requires two pilots. Better hope the Capt is an MEI. The truth about logging time is you have to log stuff to stay current, but if you plan on going anywhere better log as much as possible. But if you log SIC time in a plane type certified as a single pilot and you are Part 91, then you will get ripped up by interviewees every time. Even if the company or insurance requires it.