LOA 83 Accelerated Small Jets

[Smoking Man]

ACCELERATED SMALL JETS LETTER #83

LETTER OF AGREEMENT Between US AIRWAYS, INC. and THE AIRLINE PILOTS in the service of US AIRWAYS, INC. as represented by THE AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL

ACCELERATED SMALL JETS


THIS LETTER OF AGREEMENT is made and entered into in accordance with Title II of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, by and between US Airways, Inc. (hereinafter referred to as the “Company”) and the Airline Pilots in the service of US Airways, Inc. as represented by the Air Line Pilots Association (hereinafter referred to as the “Association”).

WHEREAS the Company has identified opportunities to introduce Small Jets into the US Airways system that would generate accelerated revenue for the Company and accelerated Jets for Jobs for the US Airways pilots, and

WHEREAS these accelerated Small Jets would be financed and operated by Participating Affiliate Carriers, and

WHEREAS the operation of such Small Jets in the US Airways Express system would require certain modifications to the scope provisions of the Restructuring Agreement dated July 1, 2002,
NOW THEREFORE the parties mutually agree as follows:

1. Other than as specifically modified in this Letter of Agreement, all terms and conditions of the ALPA-US Airways Restructuring Agreement effective July 1, 2002 (hereinafter referred to as the “Restructuring Agreement”) as modified by the Supplementary Cost Reductions Letter of Agreement (L.O.A. 84), shall remain in full force and effect.

2. The terms and conditions for placement of the Small Jet code share aircraft that are authorized to be placed at other carriers and flown under the US Airways code by the provisions of Attachments B, B-1, and B-3 of the Restructuring Agreement shall be modified under the terms and conditions stated below:

A. Up to 20 “Medium SJs” (50-seat) and up to 30 “Large SJs” (70-seat CRJ-700 aircraft only) may be operated by Mesa Airlines or by any wholly owned subsidiary of Mesa Air Group or Mesa Airlines under terms agreed to between Mesa Air Group and the Association. Such aircraft shall be subject to the Jets for Jobs Protocol and must be placed into revenue operation no later than December 31, 2004.

B. Up to 25 “Large SJs” (70-seat CRJ-700 aircraft only), in addition to the 30 “Large SJs” authorized in Paragraph 2.A. above, may be placed into revenue operation by Participating Affiliate Carriers, provided that they are placed into revenue service no later than December 31, 2004, and provided further that they are subject to the Jets for Jobs Protocol (Attachment B-3 of the Restructuring Agreement). The foregoing does not preclude the placement of Large SJs in MDA in accordance with Attachment B of the Restructuring Agreement as amended by LOA 84.

C. Up to 25 “Large SJs”, specificially limited to the CRJ-700, may be placed into revenue operation at a Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier, other than MDA. All Large SJ positions created by operation of this paragraph shall be filled by US Airways pilots in accordance with the Jets for Jobs Protocol, Attachment B-3 of the Restructuring Agreement. In addition, as an exception to the Jets for Jobs Protocol, 100% of the first 25 Medium or Small Jet positions at the Wholly Owned Carrier where the above Large Small Jets are placed shall be filled by pilots of that Wholly Owned Carrier. Upon completion of the staffing of these aircraft, the 50/50 balance of hiring pursuant to the Jets for Jobs Protocol will be followed.

D. The number of “Medium SJs” and “Large SJs” in paragraphs A, B and C above are incremental to one another but are not incremental to the total number of “Medium SJs” and “Large SJs” authorized by Attachment
B of the Restructuring Agreement.

E. Up to 12 “Medium SJs” currently being operated by Chautauqua Airlines under another carrier’s code may be placed into revenue service by Chautauqua Airlines under the US Airways code, without immediately complying with the Filling of Vacancies provision of Attachment B-3 of the Restructuring Agreement, provided that such “Medium SJs” are placed into revenue operation under the US Airways code by February 29, 2004. For each of the “Medium SJs” specified in the foregoing sentence that is placed into revenue operation by Chautauqua Airlines under the US Airways code no later than such date in 2004, Chautauqua Airlines or Republic Airlines must also place into revenue service at least the same number of additional “Medium SJs”, no later than February 28, 2005 and each such additional “Medium SJ” must be staffed entirely with pilots from the APL, provided however, that no aircraft will be placed into revenue service for Republic Airlines under the US Airways code except with the approval of the Association. If the Filling of Vacancies 50% requirement (by the balance between the Medium SJs specified in the first sentence and the Medium SJs specified in the second sentence of this paragraph E.) is not achieved by February 28, 2005, the Company must either discontinue use of the number of code share aircraft or terminate the contract with Republic or Chautauqua Airlines as required to maintain the Filling of Vacancies 50% requirement.

F. Up to 5 “Medium SJs” may be placed into revenue service by Midway Airlines under the US Airways code, without immediately complying with the Filling of Vacancies provision of Attachment B-3 of the Restructuring Agreement, provided they are placed into revenue operation under the US Airways code by December 31, 2003. For each of the “Medium SJs” specified in the foregoing sentence that is placed into revenue operation under the US Airways code no later than such date in 2003, Midway Airlines must also place into revenue service at least the same number of additional “Medium SJs”, no later than December 31, 2004, and each such additional “Medium SJ” must be staffed entirely with pilots from the APL. If the Filling of Vacancies 50% requirement is not achieved by December 31, 2004, the Company must either discontinue use of the number of code share aircraft that would bring the ratio into compliance with the 50% requirement or terminate the contract with Midway Airlines.

3. MDA shall begin revenue flights on or before December 31, 2004 with no less than two Small Jets (which shall be either “Medium SJs” or “Large SJs”, or both) placed into revenue service.

4. All aircraft authorized by this Letter of Agreement shall be subject to the reporting requirements stated in Attachment B-3 of the Restructuring Agreement.

5. The Company shall seek the agreement of each participating affiliate that it will not discriminate in hiring against any current or former US Airways pilot if a reason for such discrimination is his membership in, or his activities in or on behalf of, the Association. The Company shall require that affiliate airlines recognize the rights of a pilot in respect to this clause. However, the Company shall not assume liability for the violation of the non-discrimination clause by a Participating Affiliate.

6. If it becomes evident to the Company that it or a Participating Carrier may not be able to comply with any of the above dates, the parties agree to meet and discuss alternatives acceptable to the parties.

7. This Letter of Agreement shall become effective on the date of signing and shall remain in effect concurrent with the Restructuring Agreement.

 

[surplus1]

Yet another piece of garbage added to the already high and increasingly stinking pile that eminates from the UMEC/ALPA.

Hopefully the regional pilot groups that can will continue to reject this ALPA BS Jets for Jobs protocol. It is no less than amazing that ALPA and the UMEC continue to attempt to impose themselves on the pilots of other carriers with this protocol from hell. Now they've even gone so far as to authorize the "Freedom" (that they were decrying just last week) to do it as long as they "agree with the Association". Jets for Jobs is a failure and should be abandoned. It's been a bad idea from its inception and has not resulted in a single job for a furloughed pilot. As long as they keep this up, hopefully it never will.

I'm all for finding jobs for the USAirways pilots but not by these nefarious methods. It is high time that ALPA recognize reality and seek legitimate employment for the furloughed. It can be done, they just don't want to. If it were not for the "innocent" unemployed and those that would follow, this makes me wish the creditors would just liquidate the dam*ed thing.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Unbelievable

It is unbelievable how some people think it is okay for the regional airlines to be handed former major airline flying and then think it isn't okay that the displaced pilots be left jobless.

We've had this debate before and I'm not going to get into it again. I will never agree with you on this subject but I felt it necessary to point out to those who read this thread that there are two sides to the story.

Only the selfish and greedy can think it is okay to accept another airlines routes without employing some of the displaced pilots. In this case, 14 year USAirways veterans.

Typhoonpilot

 

[Tim47SIP]

Typhoon

Only the selfish and greedy can think it is okay to accept another airlines routes without employing some of the displaced pilots. In this case, 14 year USAirways veterans.

Isn't the problem here really the displacement of other pilots so the U mainline guys can get jobs. I don't think that there is anyone out there that does not want to see all of the U guys come off of furloughed status. But displacing other pilots to give the mainline guys jobs is just insane. Even you shurely dont think someone is greedy because they dont want to become displaced and ultimately furloughed themselves. I could understand this protocall if there was a "no displacement" policy (if there is I appologize as I am unfamilliar with it), or a prior reciprocal hiring mechanism in place, but the fact is that the U mainline guys have crapped on the WO's for years. Now they are taking that crap and rubbing it into the WO's pilots faces.

 

[CatYaaak]

Midway

Part of this LOA deals with Midway, which has shuttered it's doors twice since 9/11. In their case, no J for J deal would mean no Midway pilots recalled at all. Of course, not many will be recalled with half the seats going to US Air furloughees.

Just what the world needs; another US Air Express.

 

[d328pilot]

14 year veterans that had the chance to setup a flow through/flow back and wouldnt even discuss it because the regional guys are not good enough to work at mainline. If I get no respect, dont expect any sympathy from me....Arrogance, selfishness, and greed are exactly why U is in this mess...but I dont think its coming from the WOs
In spite of the statement above, I do feel sorry for the U pilots that I have met that have been curtious, and very respectful to me. I hope that they return to the line as soon as possible. But just when I start to feel sorry, I meet a total A$$. Like the guy 3 weeks ago that said "you have to be a mainline pilot to ride in the jumpseat... you guys are a separate company"

 

[Maxwell Smart]

Tybafooon- exactly as stated above- you guys were too greedy during the good times - Regional guys aren't good enough for our Airline- but when the tide turns you are more than willing to kick into effect the flowback - because it is all about you- -"I GOT MINE ATTITUDE" - - At Continental Express there was a flow thru - and now its a flow back - But I don't get it - for their pilots to flow up they still had to go thru an interview- and only one out of every three pilots hired at CAL had to be COEX- But now when they flow back - the guys that were former COEX- already passed an interview with COEX - But the Guys from off the street - just show up never even interview with COEX--- WHo Ever is King makes the rules- "BE NICE TO YOUR FIRST OFFICER - HE MAY SOON BE YOUR CAPTAIN" -Max

 

[CatYaaak]

Re: Unbelievable

It is unbelievable how some people think it is okay for the regional airlines to be handed former major airline flying and then think it isn't okay that the displaced pilots be left jobless.

Only the selfish and greedy can think it is okay to accept another airlines routes without employing some of the displaced pilots. In this case, 14 year USAirways veterans

Your problem isn't the regionals. Your problem is SWA, Airtran, and Jetblue. If you think you are owed a job, they are the ones who owe you because they are the ones driving prices down and taking your passengers. Your attempt at guilt-tripping is very misplaced since if you can't fill airplanes, or charge prices that will turn a profit, eventually it catches up to you.

Btw, the whole notion of someone "owning the flying" is a ridiculous false premise. Passengers choose who they will fly, and the price they are willing to pay. Revenue Passenger Miles and costs determine if you can compete with the other guy, and if you can't, you're history.

 

[LearLove]

Catyaak has a good point, years ago while mainline was busy yard darting aircraft in LGA, LAX, PIT and CLT and the fall out from these mistakes Dig Daddy Herb came along and split U route system in half by cutting into BWI. He then cut into NYC with ISP and split NY state in 2 with BUF and ALB. Turning south to FL and ORF really drilled nail in the U coffin. He's rounded out the Northeast by surrounding BOS with PVD and MHT. I think South Wests final move in the NE is PHL. Most likley it will be ABE. They could take Jersey and alot from Continental by going into ACY and thus fully surrounding PHL in the process.

U managements reaction to this is to pull service instead of competing. All along u mainline pilots have their blinders on w/ respect to RJ and Pay. Per 9/11 we are all doing well and U guys had $$$ signs in your eyes and dreams of airbusses for all. Well not anymore. Well its all over now, you'd better make yourself competitive (read pay cuts to match low cost guys) or you and U will be gone. And what will replace U/you, my guess is a windfall for Comair/Coex (our biggest competition in the NE) and that means more RJ's and the pay and working conditions that come with them. Either way its your choise.

 

[goldentrout]

Typhoonpilot

I need to echo the above comment about the integration of US Air and the wholly owned lists.

If US Air mainline, and DAL mainline for that matter, had not rejected multiple requests for either one list or a flow through, then there wouldn't be many, if any, mainline guys on furlough.

If the DAL MEC and US Air MEC followed the ALPA protocols stating that carriers owned by the same company should integrate lists, there wuoldn't be many, if any, mainline pilots on furlough.

I surmise it was arrogance or condescension towards the regional pilots that kept them off the mainline lists.

You can't have your cake and eat it too...no flow through in the good times, but "flowback" in the bad times.

I'm all for hiring furloughed mainline guys at the regionals...right at the bottom of the list.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Tim47

"Even you shurely dont think someone is greedy because they dont want to become displaced and ultimately furloughed themselves. I could understand this protocall if there was a "no displacement" policy (if there is I appologize as I am unfamilliar with it), "

No I don't. As I understand it, USAirways pilots only get half the seats of new aircraft. To me, that is a win-win for everybody involved.

CatYaak

"Your problem isn't the regionals. Your problem is SWA, Airtran, and Jetblue. If you think you are owed a job, they are the ones who owe you because they are the ones driving prices down and taking your passengers. Your attempt at guilt-tripping is very misplaced since if you can't fill airplanes, or charge prices that will turn a profit, eventually it catches up to you."

This is Apples and Oranges. If another airline takes away flying with competition then you are correct. If USAirways manangement gives away a USAirways route to another airline to lower their cost then this is bad for everybody in the long run. Look at what Delta is doing now. They have started giving away Comair routes in Orlando to a lower cost regional carrier. Where does it stop ?

Goldertrout:

"I need to echo the above comment about the integration of US Air and the wholly owned lists.

If US Air mainline, and DAL mainline for that matter, had not rejected multiple requests for either one list or a flow through, then there wouldn't be many, if any, mainline guys on furlough.

If the DAL MEC and US Air MEC followed the ALPA protocols stating that carriers owned by the same company should integrate lists, there wuoldn't be many, if any, mainline pilots on furlough.

I surmise it was arrogance or condescension towards the regional pilots that kept them off the mainline lists."

I totally agree with the above statement. I'm fairly sure I flew with the former LEC rep who blew the whole deal years ago. He did have a condescending attitude towards the regional pilots, of which I was once upon a time.

Have a nice debate from here on out, I'm out of this since I won't be near a computer for a few days. Just wanted you guys to hear the other side after our buddy Surplus's comments.

Typhoonpilot

 

[csmith]

From Goldentrout:

If US Air mainline, and DAL mainline for that matter, had not rejected multiple requests for either one list or a flow through, then there wouldn't be many, if any, mainline guys on furlough

For sake of point, the DAL mainline was very willing to discuss flowthrough. The Comair and ASA MECs would have no talk of it.


From Typhoonpilot:

If the DAL MEC and US Air MEC followed the ALPA protocols stating that carriers owned by the same company should integrate lists, there wuoldn't be many, if any, mainline pilots on furlough.

Again for sake of fairness, ALPA protocol calls for sufficient operational integration of same owned companies to trigger the PID. The Delta PWA also did not call for an integration. While your statement regarding the furloughs is true, ALPA protocol was followed to the letter, as the Comair and ASA MECs did with the filing request.

 

[goldentrout]

CSMITH

Are you talking about previous requests in years past by the ASA/Comair MECs, or this latest request for preferential hiring for DAL furloughees?

If you're talking about the latest DAL MEC request, at least at Comair, my understanding from the union is this is how it went down.

1. DAL MEC asked for preferential hiring for his furloughees, bottom of our list, but they keep their seniority #.

2. Comair MEC said, OK, how can you reciprocate?

3. DAL MEC said he'd give Comair guys preferential hiring.

4. Comair MEC said that didn't some to be much of a deal, since DAL hiring seemed to be a long way in the future, the current DAL MEC probably wouldn't even be the MEC then, and management has the ultimate decision anyway about hiring.

5. Instead of making a counter proposal, the DAL MEC said, that's the deal, and if you don't do it, I'll go public with your refusal (can anyone say blackmail?)

6. Comair MEC said fine, go ahead.

7. DAL MEC did keep his word, though, as he put out to his pilots (without mentioning that ASA/Comair had many times in the past asked for a staple or list integration, or a flowthrough), that the Comair MEC had refused his request for preferential hiring.

If anyone knows anything to the contrary, please advise.

There are options for the DAL MEC to get his guys off furlough.

1. The DAL MEC ought to be negotiating with DAL management to get as many 70/90 RJs as they can get their hands on, and put them at mainline. If he's so worried about ASA/Comair hiring and growing, why doesn't he try to get in on the action himself?

2. Start talking about list integration (as it's supposed to be in the ALPA protocols anyway). This would put all his guys on furlough ahead of all the ASA/Comair new hires from 2002 and all the guys they're going to hire this year and next year.

I don't know if our MEC would go for that or not (and I appreciate very much his efforts to protect our list), but I believe most ASA/Comair pilots would at least consider a list integration as long as it was not too lopsided in favor of the DAL list (however, staple/flowthrough are definitely out...for now and the foreseeable future, that's just a flow back system.)

The mainline MECs just don't appear to be willing to bite the bullet and realize that the RJ world is coming at them full speed ahead, and that they'd be better advised to get in on the revolution than keep trying to "preserve the profession."

The "preserving the profession" strategy has already taken down US Air and UAL...1500 US Air guys are on the street and are going to be flying RJs anyway.

At UAL, the furloughees are definitely going to be at least 1500...and numbers like 2500-3000 are popping up more and more every day.

Skywest said they'd be getting 36 new planes next year, of which 28 would be used for UAL express flying...most of which would be on current unprofitable UAL routes.

I asked a UAL pilot the other day "why doesn't your MEC get RJs on the UAL property for you guys so at least you have a job?"

His answer, "UAL management couldn't afford the pay rates that we would demand."

again "preserving the profession"

Once off probation at Comair, the pay rates, especially for the 70 seater, provide a liveable wage. Capts actually make decent money. Granted the UAL guys may have to downsize their house/car, but with 13-15 days off a month, I'm sure those that had to could supplement their income for a few years until they get back up to the bigger iron (imagine...actually having to work for a living).

I supplemented my income while on probation at Comair...you do what you've got to do to pay the bills and eat. While I may have whined privately a little about probation pay, my big picture is that I have a pilot job with a great company...I'll do what it takes now to make ends meet, and things are/will get better.

My point is that the mainline MECs need to break out of the "preserve the profession" paradigm, and start being creative to find solutions to preserve/retrieve their pilots' jobs.

Otherwise management and market forces, as they've done at US Air/UAL, will dictacte the solutions for them.

(* I guess I must admit that LOA 83 was at least an attempt by the US Air MEC to get jobs for his guys...however, doing it at the expense of other ALPA pilot lists is just plain wrong.)

 

[csmith]

From Goldentrout:

Are you talking about previous requests in years past by the ASA/Comair MECs, or this latest request for preferential hiring for DAL furloughees?

No, I was not.

You typed:
"If US Air mainline, and DAL mainline for that matter, had not rejected multiple requests for either one list or a flow through, then there wouldn't be many, if any, mainline guys on furlough."

A flow through thrown out to explore during C2K, the Comair and ASA MECs rejected it. That is to what I am referring.

Although I will not agree with your summation of how the meeting for pref hiring went with the MEC chairs, I am not in a position to confirm or refute anything. The Delta chair "version" will be coming out shortly. We shall see to what he says. Regardless, J.C. Lawson does not decide who Comair hires. It would have merely been a good faith gesture on his part to meet with the Comair president in order to obtain it. He blew it. I'm not going to debate it as it has been discussed ad nauseum on the ALPA boards.

The mainline MECs just don't appear to be willing to bite the bullet and realize that the RJ world is coming at them full speed ahead, and that they'd be better advised to get in on the revolution than keep trying to "preserve the profession."

Our MEC is quite aware of exactly what the RJs are doing and the valuable tool that they are. The 767 is also a valuable tool. The rjs are in their heyday right now because they are a largely untapped resource. Many of them merely go to replace turboprop service as they are doubtlessly preferable to props in the passenger point of view. They are also valuable on the longer thin markets which were not very practical due to length. And, of course, they provide feed to Delta mainline, as well as to themselves for city pairs where neither support mainline a/c.

The Delta MEC lets marketing decide what particular a/c to use on a route. We merely tell them which pilots they may/will use.

however, staple/flowthrough are definitely out...for now and the foreseeable future, that's just a flow back system

I wouldn't want to surmise what you are thinking here. It would appear as if you are trying to do a little "blackmail" of your own with perceived leverage which is not really there. Again, this has been debated to all ends on Nat'l. In the next three years, Delta will retire 1000ish pilots. Even with no growth, 0 profit/loss the pilots will be back. Our MEC has chosen, for now, to preserve for them the job they left. Give a little profit margin, a recovering economy, passenger levels even approaching what they are forecast to approach, the NWA/CAL codeshare approved and adding the advertised dollars, and Delta will be hiring again in 2005-2006--just in time to enter the boom of the last half of the decade--as history shows. I feel quite comfortable with our position now. Of course if we hit Iraq, and keep losing over a billion a year, we have a lot more to worry about than furloughs, Rj percentages, etc.

A flow was offered, and rejected--while Delta was hiring. Bottom line

C

 

[goldentrout]

I can agree with you that things might look OK in 2-4 years at DAL.

However, I firmly believe that 70-90 seat aircraft will be doing much of what some MD-80s/727s/Fokkers (and maybe even 737s) are doing today.

I've heard two different sources tell me that Leo M. has been talking to his Capt iupgrade classes, and he says all aircraft under 110 seats or so will be flown by Comair/ASA.

Now, that was before the recent scope negotiations/agreements.

If I'm management, and I see that my overhead of a Comair pilot flying a 90 seat RJ is about 2/3 of what it would cost me to fly MD-80 or a 737, or if I can run 2 seventy seaters rather than 1 737, and offer more flight frequency, I'm going with the RJ option.

This just might be the monkey wrench in the get-well plan you describe above for the DAL list.

 

[surplus1]

Two Sides To The Story

To typhoonpilot, et al,

Yes, there are two sides to the story and both sides should be heard.

Like many other things in life, there is often a significant difference between what you do and how and why you do it. You have focused on the what, while completely ignoring the how and why. The what (wanting access to the new jobs) is not offensive, the how and why (Jets for Jobs) IS offensive. In other words, the method chosen by ALPA and the UMEC is the reason for the objections. The majority of ALL of us, self included, would like the see the furloughed pilots get recalled or get new jobs. What is unacceptable is how you're going about it.

It is unbelievable how some people think it is okay for the regional airlines to be handed former major airline flying and then think it isn't okay that the displaced pilots be left jobless.

That statement proves the point that I am and was trying to make. First of all, regional airlines are not being "handed former major airline flying". That misconception lies at the root of the the division than now exists and unfortunately, continues to be fostered by the ALPA decision makers.

Management is simply shifting from the utilization of currently inefficient and unprofitable mainline aircraft to the use of equipment that is currently more suitable to the present economic environment. That these different types of equipment, often owned and operated by the same corporate entity, are being flown by different and disparate pilot groups, with a common employer is a direct result of the behavior of the union and the mainline pilot groups. YOU ALL created this mess by virtue of the discriminatory and apartheid practices of mainline pilot leaders. Additionally, your current activies exacerbate the problem of outsourcing rather than reducing it.

In general, regional pilots may regret and resent the mistakes of the past but do not want to hold you "hostage" because of them. The problem is that your groups want to continue the same flawed policies, i.e., you refuse to change, even to your own detriment and potential demise.

Only the selfish and greedy can think it is okay to accept another airlines routes without employing some of the displaced pilots. In this case, 14 year USAirways veterans.
Typhoonpilot

Again, your statement demonstrates that you do not understand the real problem. The fact is we would ALL like to employ not some, but ALL of the "displaced" mainline pilots. What we do NOT want is to have this happen by the forced abrogation of seniority and contracts at the hiring carriers. Forced, not by management, but by the very union that allegedly represents ALL our collective interests. Yes, there are 14-year US Airways "veterans" that have been furloughed. That's extremely regrettable. However, it does NOT justify the displacement of 15-year ALG and PDT "veterans" (or any other pilot no matter how senior or junior) to ensure their re-employment. Neither does it justify the dileberate proliferation of outsourcing.

That you choose to classify objection to your policies "selfish and greedy" on the part of regional pilots reminds me of the current dilemma of Trent Lott ..... you just don't get it!

I don't want you to reverse the errors of the past. That's not possible. However, neither do I want you to continue the same stupid separatist policies that created them. That is precisely what ALPA's "Jets for Jobs" protocol attempts to do. That's bad policy, bad politics, bad faith and discriminatory. It should be rejected without exception. You can't run a "union" on the basis of a policy of disunity and segragation of airline pilots. That's ludicrous.

I encourage you and others that support this policy to stop trying before we get to the point of no return. I would like to be your brother; don't force me to become your enemy. Either you modify your thinking or the chasm will become an unbridgeable abyss.

 

[csmith]

Re: Two Sides To The Story

From Goldentrout:

I've heard two different sources tell me that Leo M. has been talking to his Capt iupgrade classes, and he says all aircraft under 110 seats or so will be flown by Comair/ASA.

I have several hundred pages that say something else. So now the wild rumor is up to 110, huh? LOL


From Surplus:

I encourage you and others that support this policy to stop trying before we get to the point of no return. I would like to be your brother; don't force me to become your enemy. Either you modify your thinking or the chasm will become an unbridgeable abyss.

Message received loud and clear. Thanks for the threat Usama.

C

really thinks Surplus might go and..uh...visit ALPA national hdq.

 

[goldentrout]

CSMITH

As I said, it's just rumors about 110 seat aircraft.

If you know something different, let's hear it.

As for your optimism about the future of the DAL list, I applaud you for having hope.

However, for your plan to come together, it will only happen if

the economy does rebound in the mid decade

and if

Congress doesn't raise the retirement age

and if

the business travel picks up to what were record setting levels of the late nineties

and if

fractional jets don't siphon off much of the business travel

and if

businesses are willing to pay for fares twice to three times as much as those offered by the low cost carriers

and if

the DAL low cost program makes some money

and if

management at DAL doesn't decide to start a Delta version of Mid-Atlantic to avoid having to pay mainline pilot rates

and if

the RJDC doesn't win it's case, which just might void all your scope clauses

If I were you, I think I'd go with the 70/90 seat RJ mainline option. If traffic does pick up, then they'll always be bigger iron to fly at DAL mainline, and hiring to help you move up in seniority.

If all the "ifs" above don't materialize, you and your fellow furloughees might be "preserving the profession" a little longer than you expected.

It's not your flying, it's not Comair flying, it's not ASA flying, it's not ACA flying, it's not Skywest flying.

It's the Delta Corporation's flying...they have a plethora of aircraft with which to do this flying. It is management's responsiblity to use the right sized plane on the right route to maximize revenue.

See...if we were all one list...and we had just a one line scope clause that said "all Delta flying will be done by a pilot on the Delta seniorty list," all these problems would disappear.

If we had one list...few if any DAL pilots would be on furlough...they might be flying RJs for a few years until the industry downturn ended, but they'd have a job, and might even have a few people being hired below them.

Instead, ALPA has convinced you, apparently, to "take one for the team."

I hope you're a good craps player...because THEIR current "preserve the profession" strategy sure is
a big roll of the dice with YOUR future.

 

[csmith]

As I said, Golden, this has been debated ad nauseum on the ALPA boards--where it should be. I don't agree that it is reasonable to obtain one list. I don't agree that Congress will raise the age with this many pilots out of work. I do agree that there COULD be some sort of MidAtlantic agreement at Delta. I don't agree that the Delta pilots do not own/control who flies airplanes for Delta. We could go on and on with debate, but it's already been done ad nauseum on the Nat'l boards.

My original post wanted to clear up the misconception that there had never been a flow through offered. If I were you, I would have pushed for it because there will likely be a very loud thud when this RJDC thing hits the ground.

C

 

[goldentrout]

CSMITH

OK...you win. You're right . It's all DAL flying, and the RJDC is screwed up.

You and your MEC can stand by your position until the cows come home, while

1. ASA/Comair continue to hire, to the tune of 500 pilots or so next year, and acquire another 30 or 40 jets, including 70 seaters.

2. Watch more of your guys go on furlough every month.

3. Live with the prospect that Mid Atlantic II or Freedom Air II could spoil your whole plan.

4. Watch DAL management farm out even more flying to ACA/Chatauqua and who knows who else.

5. Hope this DAL low cost thing works...otherwise, it will be even more money down the drain.

6. Hope, against all prognostications, that low cost carriers don't continue to gain even more market share (i.e. more business travel too), so that revenue levels return enough to sustain your compensation at DAL mainline.

You know, we're all (well, most of us), are on your side.

As you said, though, this has been debated to the death...only time will tell if ALPA really is going to "preserve the profession."

Ai I said, I hope for YOUR sake, THEIR strategy works...because in my opinion, ALPA's compensation strategy has lately been take care of the top of the last, and to heck with everything and everyone else.

Good Luck...I really do hope yo're flying again soon. I was furloughed once, I know it stinks.