Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Leasebacks, experience or opinions?

  • Thread starter Thread starter SteveR
  • Start date Start date
  • Watchers Watchers 2

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

SteveR

Active member
Joined
May 24, 2003
Posts
38
Does anyone have any experience or opinions with leasebacks? I'm considering buying a 152 or 172 to place on leaseback. My initial impression is that the plane would get 30-40hrs a month. I'm not really concerned about profit. If I make a profit, that is just an added bonus. All I really want to do is greatly reduce what I pay to fly. If I could knock my cost down 50%, I would be really happy. I'll probably fly around 100hrs/year. The 152 would rent for $45/hr (block time, probably 30 hrs/mo) & the 172 would rent for $65/hr (block time, probably closer to 40 hrs/mo).

The FBO wants 20% for management.

I get greatly varying opinions depending on who I talk to. Some say they've never met someone who was happy with their leaseback, some say it can drastically reduce what I pay to fly.

I guess maybe what I'm really asking is for opinions on leasebacks, as well as actual operating costs of a 152 & 172 that are relatively low time & well maintained.

I've also considered partnerships, I'm still exploring the posibilities of both. I'm completely new to ownerships, so all I really know is that I have a lot to learn.
 
A little more info...

The hangar would be free...I'm not sure what breaks this FBO would give me on labor.

The owner just threw these numbers down for me...is he absolutely feeding me a line, or are these numbers reasonable?

For a 172:

Rent price: $65/hr

Expenses:

Fuel: $13/hr
Engine/maintenance $10/hr.
Insurance: $10/hr
Management (20%): $13/hr
TOTAL $48/hr

Using his numbers, I MAKE $680/month, he said it should fly 40hrs/month. I realize I have no guarantee of that though. Does any of this sound right, or is the guy full of it?

Thanks for any input!
 
Leasebacks

A 172 is gonna burn at least 8gph. If he quotes you $13 then you are paying about 1.66 per gallon on fuel. If that's true, then he is giving you a break on gas or you live in a part of the country where gas is really cheap. I'd say his quote on gas is valid if your getting a good rate. You should find out. If he expects you to pay retail for gas then I'd say you are under quoting fuel expense.

Your engine/maintence budget seems about right. Let's say you are expecting $1000 per 100/hour inspection plus something for unexpected expenses. I'd say you are okay at $10 and hour but that leaves nothing for what people call "engine reserve"...which means you have a reserve fund to do the overhaul at TBO. If you want an engine reserve you should figure an hourly rate that will give you 15K at TBO for the overhaul. Another thing about maintenance. Does he figure you'll do all your work at his shop at his shop rate? Let's say you ran into an A and P that would trade you wrenching for flying? Would that be acceptable with your FBO? Such a situation could save you a lot of money and is something you should look for.

$10 an hour, unfortunately, is about right for insurance if your plane only fly's 40 hours a month. I just got quoted $4500 for a 30K hull and 1 million, 100,000 per passenger, on liability. Say your 172 is worth 50K, I could easily see you spending over 5K a year on insurance....which is about $10 an hour at 40 hours a month. I chose to self insure the hull and go with liability only, my FBO could care less. Insurance is a rip off since, if there is a large claim, they get to keep what's left of the plane and sell it off. I have a nice Garmin 430 that is worth bucks and in a fairly minor crash, there will be lots of good parts left over. If you have a claim, the insurance company writes you a check and then parts out the plane. My belief is they make out great in the end by selling off what's left over. I'm self insuring my own hull at $5 an hour and in four years, barring an accident, I'll have enough to cover what I paid for the plane. Your have to ask yourself this question...will I have a total hull loss every four years? If so, then I'd say you should pay for full hull coverage.

Management at 20% could go either way. I just worked a deal for 15% but I get to advertise via his pilot supply store and he is giving me a nice place to offer instruction out of at an airport/town that could really use another flight school. You are planning on making $17 per hour and seem happy with that. Will you own the plane outright or will you have to pay the bank every month? That $17 an hour profit will probably go to your monthly payment unless you own the plane outright...still not a bad deal. All in all, based on what you've told me, I'd say you have a pretty good deal going which should at least allow you to break even. You could give it a try and if things don't work out, you could still sell the plane.

Another thing to consider...

Buy your 172. Operate it on auto gas and get a free lance mechanic. Use free lance CFI's who think it's a great deal to get $30 an hour to use your plane. You get to keep the FBO's 20% and run your own show. A lot depends on the local airport nazi's....I mean...local airport manager or airport boards, attitude on free lancers. Some airports do everything they can to discourage this sort of activity so you have to weigh the rewards vs the risks.
 
I had a 172 on leaseback to a flight school for about 2 years and learned some good lessons.
1. Don't think about it unless you are going to watch it like a hawk. Being an instructor there is even better because you get plane rental money, and Instruction money. And you can nudge all you students into your airplane.

2. Renter pilots beat the sh!t out of an airplane. Sure there are some that care, but as a whole, little regaurd for your property. "Oh well, I'm not paying for it..."

3. Be careful with maintenance. If the place you are leasing back too also does the MX for your plane, watch that stuff like a hawk. We were getting charged almost twice for a 100 hour inspection then if we had carted the plane across the field for it (and yes across the field was an extremely reputable shop).

4. If you are only looking to fly 100 hours a year, and arent' looking to make a profit, you would probably do better to just rent. Less headaches. And if you go into the whole thing with the idea that "I don't want to make a profit" then you are just opening yourself up to get burned.

5. If you are just looking at reducing your flying costs and not making money, than I would consider a partnership with somebody. At least you will know what people are doing with/to your airplane, you can have it when you want. Wear and tear will be much less on the plane, thus keeping MX costs down.

We had bought a 1976 172, gave it a fresh paint job, NEW interior and put it on the line with a freshly overhauled engine, and I was an instructor at the flight school so I was always putting people into the plane. It made me sick to see the way that plane got abused. The only thing that made me feel better was the money we were making. This was pre 9/11 and plane was always flying 90+ hours a month. Anyways, just be careful and remember that a leaseback is an AWESOME deal for the flightschool owner. 20% for doing absolutely nothing and if they have the MX shop then the are making an absolute killing. We figured that the school was making 20k a year or more off of our airplane. PM me if you have anymore questions.
 
I've got two aircraft on leaseback... A Cessna 172 and a Schweizer 300CB (for those who don't know, that is a two seat training helicopter).

My experience over the past year has been that you can make a lot of money, and you can lose a lot of money, depending on a lot of factors, many of which are completely outside your control.

If you can afford to own anyway, and this is just a way to cut your costs and help pay for training, go for it. If you have to take out a loan to pay for the aircraft, forget it. You can get buried in this way too easy if you're not careful and cannot afford to ride out the slow months.

And yes, you can make a profit off a leaseback, but most people simply break even or lose money.

Regarding your specific situation...

The rental rate is low, and the number of hours they want to fly it is low. My 172 did 91 hours and my helicopter did 102 hours in April. That is the kind of time you need to have it flying to really make sense, otherwise the extra costs (MX and insurance) are eating up all the income.

You must set aside about $12/hr for reserves, both for the engine and for inprovements. 4 years of leaseback experience does a number on an aircraft interior, wears out the avionics and instruments, and runs the engine out.

Then you should be paying about $7/hr for 100 hour inspections (anything more and you're paying too much). That includes minor repairs, but nothing major.

Then insurance will cost you between $400 and $600 a month depending on hull value and other factors.

Fuel averages about 10gph in a training enviroment (students and CFIs almost never lean, running full power and full rich a lot of the time)

So whatever fuel costs you, times 10gph.

Taking the figures you provided, subtracting the $12/hr for reserves, leaves you with $200 a month. Sounds nice, until you consider that it doesn't take very many things breaking to turn that number upside down.

I would not personally consider an FBO that couldn't show me two years of rental history of at least 75 hours a month average and provide MX at a rate reasonable enough to keep them from having that be their major profit center.

For example, my 100 hour inspections on my 172 are flat rated to $580 (not including any repairs beyond the normal inspection) and the per hour cost for repairs is $48/hr. Parts are cost plus 15%, to cover their overhead and employee expenses.

Overall, I'm happy with my own deal, I've made money on the helicopter and so far, I've broken even on the airplane. Given that I fly both about 25 hours a month, that is pretty good.

Jason
 
Check out:

Purchasing and Evaluating Airplanes
By Brian Jacobson
ISBN: 0-9653640-8-9

Great book, it has a chapter on leasebacks.
 
RFtech said:
Check out:

Purchasing and Evaluating Airplanes
By Brian Jacobson
ISBN: 0-9653640-8-9

Great book, it has a chapter on leasebacks.

Chapter 3...

A very good read, and it should be taken seriously by anyone thinking of this.

Leasebacks are not for everone, too many people think this is the ticket to getting someone else to pay for their own "personal" airplane. It isn't "your" plane really because you have to schedule it just like everyone else, and it won't be loved and cared for like your own plane would be.

Above all else, do not buy an aircraft for a leaseback that you cannot otherwise afford to own. That can leave you in a bad way if things do not work out as you expect.

One thing to consider is how eager the flight school is to have you leaseback a plane. I talked to serveral flight schools before picking mine. The two I work with both told me that if I have doubts about it, to not do it. That not all their owners make money, and that sometimes it can go south. Both were upfront and honest about the risks, and shared all the numbers on their existing aircraft before I went into this.

Jason
 
Not intending to flood the thread, but since I forgot to post this the first time, here goes:

Jason’s Leaseback Advice:

1. Leasebacks are a business, always treat them like one. Never get emotionally attached to a leaseback airplane, it will get abused just like a rental car does, and you don't go seeking those out when you buy a used car, do you? Put leaseback aircraft in corporations, run their books separately, have a separate tax return for the aircraft each year, etc.

2. You can make a lot of money with a leaseback. You can lose a lot of money with a leaseback. Many of the factors of making/losing money are completely outside of your control. If your goal in a leaseback is to have someone else pay for your personal airplane, you probably are not going to be happy with the result.

3. If you leaseback an aircraft to an honest FBO, you have a chance to do well. If you leaseback an aircraft to a crook, you have no chance at all. Get to know with whom you are doing business. Ask around the airport, talk to the other owners, etc.

4. Run the numbers from a realistic viewpoint. Take what you're paid each hour by the FBO and subtract the per hour costs such as fuel and maintenance reserves. That figure is your actual hourly income (the rest does not exist for this calculation) Take the monthly fixed costs and divide them by that "true" per hour income. That is the number of hours the aircraft must fly each month to break even. The monthly fixed costs must include insurance, tie-down, and the "payment", even if there is no payment on the aircraft. The cash you might pay for an aircraft has value, if you don't include it in the monthly fixed costs, you're letting the FBO use your money for free.

5. You're still a renter, you just rent one specific aircraft for a reduced rate, but you're still a renter and must schedule your flights along with everyone else. If you are inclined to "bump" paying customers for your own flying, you're probably a poor leaseback candidate. You'll upset those customers and you'll be hurting your own income stream.

6. The standard leaseback agreement is the basic 80/20 plan. You get 80% of the per hour rental rate, the FBO gets 20%. Out of your 80% you pay fuel, insurance, tie-down, maintenance, and the "payment" for the aircraft (again, this has nothing to do with actually having a bank loan or not).

7. FBOs like leasebacks because it removes all the risk from them. They get 20% of the rental rate, yet do not have to own or maintain a fleet of airplanes. You absorb all that risk.

8. The best leaseback deals are on aircraft that fly a lot of hours each month. A Cessna 172 that flies 80 hours a month will almost always make money. A Piper Arrow that flies 20 hours a month will almost always lose money. The breakeven point on most single engine airplanes is around 50 hours and the leaseback becomes really worth doing from a profit perspective at 65 hours. I know of a case where a Piper Arrow was leased to a flight school and it flew 60 hours over 8 months. The owner lost a lot of money in insurance and maintenance. I also know of a case where a Cessna 172 was leased to a flight school and it flew an average of 87.2 hours a month over a 12 month period, the owner made a lot of money that year.

9. Never buy a leaseback airplane from a flight school. If they already own the airplane, they have no reason to sell it to you and then have you lease it right back to them. Never put a brand new airplane on leaseback, they lose too much value the first few years.

10. Only do a leaseback if you can afford to own the airplane without the leaseback. Used aircraft can be expensive the first few months you own them. Don't expect to take anything home the first three to six months. People who already have money seem to do well with leasebacks. Those who really cannot afford an airplane in the first place seem to do poorly.

11. Buy the right aircraft, the right way. You can do everything else right, but if you buy the wrong aircraft or pay too much, you'll lose every time. This doesn't mean pick a Cessna 172 over a Piper Warrior, this means pick the right Cessna 172 or Piper Warrior. Some airplanes just shouldn't be leased back. You want something reliable with a known history. Avoid the very high time and very low time airplanes. You must sometimes spend money to make money, people want to rent airplanes with nice interiors and good panels. If the per hour rental rate is equal, would you rather fly in a Cessna 172 with ARC radios and no GPS, or a full King Digital panel? The new panel might add 20% to the price of the airplane but double your monthly profit.

12. Think long and hard about why you're doing this. Many people get into leasebacks for all the wrong reasons, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons.

Jason
 
My father had a Citabria on leaseback deals. He rarely made money. More often, than not, he lost money. Here are two things he learned along the way:

1. Find out what the airport charges the FBO for parking. If there is no charge for each individual airplane, don't let the FBO charge you for something they don't have to pay for. They're already getting the management fee.

2. Are they charging the renter Hobbs time, but paying you (the owner) Tach time? My father found this out the first time he did a leaseback. Is the 20% management fee the difference between Tach and Hobbs time? Is the 20% management fee off the top of what they pay you?

Over time, my father learned to develop incentives for the school/FBO. One was to base the maintenance costs upon the number of hours flown. The first 100 hour check was covered by my father. The second was shared between my father and the FBO. The third was covered by my father and fourth was covered by the FBO.

Good luck...fly safe!
 
Slim said:
My father had a Citabria on leaseback deals. He rarely made money. More often, than not, he lost money.
A Citabria on leaseback?

Interesting, I'd be really curious to see how that deal worked out.

A friend of mine owns one personally, he gives tailwheel and aerobatic instruction on the side, but mostly he just has fun with it. I like the plane, but it seems out of place for a leaseback.

1. Find out what the airport charges the FBO for parking. If there is no charge for each individual airplane, don't let the FBO charge you for something they don't have to pay for. They're already getting the management fee.

While that is true, tiedown space at $25 to $75 a month isn't going to make or break the deal, or it shouldn't anyway.

2. Are they charging the renter Hobbs time, but paying you (the owner) Tach time?

It makes zero sense to charge anything other than Hobbs time. Hobbs time works out in most cases to be about 1.2 times Tach time. The owner should also be paid based on Hobbs time. Tach time is for MX only, nothing else. (or that is how it should be anyway)

100 hour inspections are generally run off Tach time while revenue is charged off Hobbs time.

This way, you generally will get about 120 hours of income for each 100 hour inspection.

Jason
 

Latest resources

Back
Top