Lear 35a

[RichardFitzwell]

Are there any advantages to buying a Lear 35a that is currently on a 135 cert. over buying a plane that is being operated under Part 91?

We are looking and have narrowed it down to four different aircraft. Two are currently being operated in charter and Fortune 500 companies fly the other two.

We will add it to our 135 certificate and operate it in charter operations. Thanks for all responses.

 

[mike1mc]

You'll have the piece of mind knowing that the aircraft has been maintained in accordance with all the 135 regs and has all the required equipment on board. Other than that, I can't think of any other good reason.

The advantage of a Fortune 500 aircraft is that they are usually meticuously maintained. Although the 135 aircraft is maintained to stricter standards, the 91 aircraft will likely be well maintained because of the seemingly "endless" maintenance budget that some of these companies have. Just keep in mind this isn't always the case.

I guess this really didn't help much, just food for thought!

 

[transpac]

If you plan to operate the Lear under 135, be sure that all parts installed on the airplane are either original equipment or are from an approved source, and that all supporting records are on hand. Also, be sure that all overhaul and repair recommendations of the manufacturer(s) have been complied with. Part 135 maintenance requirements are considerably more strict than 91, and it sometimes is a bear to get a legal Part 91 airplane approved for 135. Presumably, an ex-Part 135 airplane will have all documentation needed to meet 135 requirements, while an ex-Part 91 airplane may or may not. OTOH, I believe an average ex-corporate Part 91 airplane will probably be in better overall shape than an average one off a 135 certificate.

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

Quick .02 from someone who spends his days (not for long though!) working on corporate and 135 airplanes...

Many corporate flight departments seem to maintain thier airplanes as if they were operating 135. They know that this keep the resale value of thier airplane up, and it gives them the option of putting it on someone's 135 certificate.

As I understand it (I'm a pretty lowly A&P though--take it with a grain of salt)--under 135 you must comply with any Service Bulletin. You also have to replace things whenever the manufacturer recommends you do so.

This means that a part 91 plane could easily be maintained the same way, but they just as easily could have decided not to replace the flap actuator at 2,500 hours because it was still working well.

Do you guys not have your maintenance department go over these things now? Seems to me if you want good advice, get it from the guys who will have to cuss at the thing in the near future.

Dan

 

[501261]

If you're looking to add it to a 135 certificate, I'd probably go with the 135 birds. Simple little things like burn certs can be a real headache to get.

On the other hand the Fortune 500 birds are probably in a better shape overall. It's been my experience that Fortune 500 companies generally have a little more in their maintanance budget than charter operators.

 

[RichardFitzwell]

Thanks for the responses.

All maintenance is done in house. The logbooks are/will be gone through thoroughly even before we take the time to look at the aircraft. The only aircraft being considered are the ones on MSP or MSP Gold.

Our maintenance department is verifying that all AD’s and Bulletins have been complied with. I also understand the Lear 35a has a very large 12-year check that must be completed. The aircraft being considered range from 1980 to 1985 which means this big inspection will be fast approaching on any aircraft purchased. Also RVSM is a factor.

Assuming all maintenance items have been addressed and logged on both the 91 and 135 aircraft, is there any advantage to spending more for an aircraft currently being operated under 135? Also, what is involved in adding this jet to a 135 certificate that doesn’t currently have a Lear (or any turbojet) listed?

 

[avbug]

Service bulletin compliance is not mandatory under Part 135. Not all recommended replacement intervals are mandatory, either. Part 91-only aircraft may be operated on-condition, whereas certain requirements do apply to Part 135 airplanes. However, in truth, most maintenance under Part 135 uses the manfuacturers maintenance program, and as a result there is no difference in the maintenance between most Part 135 aircraft, and most Part 91 aircraft.

In fact, for 135 operators using a MEL, you may well find a lot of work not done, or deferred when arranging for purchase of the Part 135 airplane.

When one asks the question of which is better, an airplane maintained under 135 vs. one maintained strictly to meet the requirements of part 91, the only appropriate answer is that not enough information is provided. It all depends on the specific degree of care that any given owner/operator has provided.

I've seen a lot of 135 airplanes that are about as close to death traps as you can get...and those are in full compliance, or at least under the pretense of being in compliance. I've seen turbojet aircraft under Part 135 which had no useable copilot instruments. Aircraft which had wheel fractures and failures as a result of improper inspections. Aircraft with improper radio installations, leading to false indications, or false instrument indications. Improper lubrications (remember Air Alaska as a part 121 airplane...Part 121 is no maintainenance panacea, either).

Put the idea of weather the aircraft has been operated under Part 135 or not completely out of your mind. Instead, look at the condition of the airplane and let it rest on it's own laurels. That the aircraft has been operated and maintained under Part 135 means nothing.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

buy the seller, not just the Lear.

shady 135 operator ...well....you can take a guess at the mx.

I would say MOST 91 operators are not as cheap as the 135 guys, thus aircraft may be taken care of a bit better...

but this is just from my limited experience!

 

[mike1mc]

As far as getting the aircraft on a 135 certificate, get ready for some work.

Here is a lot of documents you will be gettting to know VERY well. Especially the FAA ORDER 8400. This will outline all the requirements for everything you will do. Essentially, this is the document your POI is using for guidance in order to approve your operation.

This will give you the new changes to 135 (along with the addition of Part 91K). Outlined you will find the new regs for proving runs (which you will need to complete if you have no turbojet aircraft on the certificate).

If you have any questions, PM me. I've gone through this process a few times, and I'm in the process of adding another aircraft as we speak. I hope you have a REALLY nice POI, as it makes the process much easier. Gather ALL your documentation and make sure it is complete. At a minimum you'll need:
- Training programs
- Maintenance Inspection Programs
- Aircraft Logbooks with summary of ADs/SBs compliance
- Ops Manual revisions & additions
- Aircraft MEL (the Master MEL can be found HERE
- Information for updated Ops Specs (emergency equipment, comm/nav equipment)

Also do a search on obtaining 135 certificates (there is a recent thread floating around here somewhere with lots of good info). The Atlanta FSDO website has this information as well.

 

[RichardFitzwell]

Excellent information. Thanks a lot.