Latest on the Sovereign for NetJets and CS

[Heavy Set]

I have heard from a few Netjets friends that there is concern about whether Netjets will actually take delivery of the Sovereign given CS and its Sovereign delivery schedule. I guess Santulli is still miffed about CS taking on Sovereigns at the same time. You don't think Santulli would CANCEL the entire order do you? I doubt it because Netjets needs an aircraft like the Sovereign with its capabilities. NetJets passed on the the Hawker Horizon...

What have you guys heard about the Sovereign situation at Netjets - everything still running to plan? How many will CS get and will CS indeed get them at around the same time? Looks like a nice ride...

 

[wingnutt]

lol...i dont know how he can be miffed when the first word in CS is Citation. did he really think that CS wouldnt use em just because he wants em???

 

[flyfish]

biting the hand that feeds you.

One of the biggest customers? THE biggest customer. What might be good for CS might not be good for Cessna. Doesn't seem like smart business to me. It's already cost them a big time order, they seem a glutton for punishment.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

Yeah, right. Another belly laugh from the fracs board. Biting the hand that feeds you.....glutton for punishment. Hee Hawwwwwww....

CS is rolling merrily along, while Nut Jets implodes from the inside out. I'm sure that Cessna AND CS could really care less about NJA and the Sovereign. This is quite obvious by Cessna's decision....DUH......

 

[wingnutt]

i see your point griz, but when the two companies (the supplier and the competition) are so irrevocably linked, it seems obvious where the loyalty is going to fall

 

[Heavy Set]

When are the Sovereigns expected to arrive for both Netjets and CS? Any idea about estimated delivery dates? Any pilots already in training?

 

[longrangekiller]

Corporate loyality is to the bottom line not NetJets or CS. It is all about the money.

 

[FracCapt]

Once they made it obvious they weren't going to honor that by offering Sovereigns through CS, the NetJets CJ3 order went away in favor of the 400XP.

So he canceled an order with Cessna to go with Raytheon, whom once owned RTA and now owns RTA2(AKA Flight Options)? I guess he needs to cancel all orders with Cessna and Raytheon. Of course, we all know he doesn't have anything to do with Bombardier...so I guess Dassault, Gulfstream, and Boeing are left. Since you guys don't add BBJ's at a fast rate(the market just won't bear it at the present time), I guess NJA will soon be all Falcon 2000's...and NJI will get all the G's, eh?

 

[dkte737]

trying to guess where we will get airplanes from is crazy. I never thought we would get Beechjets, but we did....and I'm SURE we got a hell of a deal on them and the maintenance program. I'm also sure RTS does and says stuff to influence the manafacturers to compete with one another....Horizon vs. Sovereign or whatever....Bombardier???? Its all about low purchase price vs. high retail.

David

 

[On Your Six]

That Sovereign looks like a great airplane. Gotta like the computer cursors on the Primus Epic flight deck... I am sure it is going to be a hit with passengers too given its long cabin and equally long legs (transcon capability). I think Netjets would make a big mistake if it passed up on this airplane - CS would benefit big time... CS would have the Sovereign, Flexjet would have the Challenger 300 and Flight Options would have the Horizon - all likely to be great airplanes... Not sure how the G200 would measure up against those alternatives - although it does have a wide cabin.

 

[wingnutt]

I'm betting that we're gonna be here and that we're going to have some new folks on our seniority list. Should be an interesting ride.

hmmmmmmmmmmmm...

 

[NJAowner]

Super Mid Size Comparsion

I have flown on the G200 as an upgrade .. beautiful plane from an owner's comfort perspective (can't speak about the pilot's). Been on the FlexJet Challenger 300 with a friend ... no comparison and 1 passenger less. Sovereign is just a cross between the Excel and X. Can not speak of the Horizon. Out of this group, I think the G200 wins hands down. If reliabilty is an issue, NJA delivers a Falcon 2000 or G-IV. CS can only "down grade" you if there are availablity or performance issues.

Just my 2 cents.

Fly safe.

 

[Live4flyng]

The first time I climbed on the Sovereign it reminded me of the Citation X, only a little more cramped. I don't think NJA would be hurting very much if they pass on the deliveries of these airplanes. The X is much faster and can do basically the same thing give or take a little runway length. I am willing to bet NJA won't see this airplane for reasons previously stated. Anyone want to bet on whether the Horizon will return again? I'm still trying to figure out why NJA had a challenger at a static demo about 8 months ago. Flame suit doned, bring on the gas.

 

[FraxJockey]

Performance

Between the G200 and CL300, I think the CL300 performance puts the G200 to shame. Not that the G200 isn't a nice plane, but try getting the G200 to fly out of Hilton Head (4200 ft) and go anywhere....(3+ Hours in the CL300 @ .83M).

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Citation Sovereign cabin:
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Height: 5.8 ft (1.73 m)
Width: 5.7 ft (1.70 m)
Length: 29.9 ft (9.07 m)

Challenger 300 cabin:
Height: 6'1" (1.85 m)
Width: 7'2" (2.19 m)
Length: 28'7" (8.72 m)

G200 Cabin:
Height: 6.25'
Width: 7.2'
Length: 24.5'
[/font]

 

[NJAowner]

Look deeper at statistics

Flexlrpilot

Look at little deeper -- according the the FlexJet website, the 28' cabin in the 300 includes the lavatory, galley and walk in baggage areas. That really doesn't count toward passenger comfort.

Seating areas is -- G200 = 22 feet +/-, Sovereign = 20 feet +/-, 300 probably 19/20 +/- (Flex does not publish this number).

Having been in both cabins, I think the NJA G200 cabin is roomer and superior to the Flex 300. I can't speak for the Sovereign, but I have spent many hours in Excel and X which are similar tubes (just different lengths), and they do not compare favorably to either the G200 or Challenger 300.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

NJA"owner",

Conceded, the roughly 4' advantage that the CL30 enjoys is attributable to the fact that the baggage compartment of the CL30 is accessible from the cabin, vice the G200. This is considered an advantage, both from the crewmember's and the owner/passenger's perspective.

An inch here or an inch there... Pleasant psycho-spatial architecure is very subjective. Performance numbers, however, are not.

 

[NJAowner]

flexlr"pilot"357

point conceded. You know the peformance numbers much better than me. This just started as a comparison not a battle and I weighed in my 2 cents from sitting in the back, not flying them. As with most things in life, there is compromise, and in the case of these jets comfort vs. performance.

Fly safe.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

NJA"owner",

I'm curious, was the CL 30 cabin too short for you (the difference is a whopping 2"), or not quite wide enough (the difference is 0.4")? I'm wondering which aspect of your formidable physique rendered the airplane uncomfortable. I could pass the feedback on to the engineers. Was the door wide enough?

I know you are entitled to your opinion, it's just that Southern Air may still operate L-382s, and that may be the best option for you. You could really stretch out.

 

[dkte737]

its funny, Im on the Hawker 1000 and all the bags are accessible to the pax but only 1 pax out of 3 years of pax has ever needed to get in the bags....

just a thought.

David

 

[NJAowner]

Maybe after flexlr"pilot"'s bouncy landings and take offs, his passengers need to get to their luggage because his skills caused them to wet their pants or spill their drinks.


All kidding aside, it was not just a "size" issue. Please do not take it personally flexlr. A main point is the G200 seats 9 and the 300 seats 8. It was my opinion that G200 had a nicer interior -- more comfortable seats, larger galley, galley that was sort of separated from the cabin (even though there is no separate door), and a couch area. Just an opinion.

The 300 was very, very nice. I would take either over my Excel so please do not be insulted. If i recall the lav was more lavish (sorry no pun intended) in the 300 and even though we just had sandwiches, I recall it had a small oven.

Some people like Fords trucks, some Chevy and each can go on for days on why their is better than the other. The fact is they are very similar when you get down to basics.

Fly safe.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

I'm most certainly not taking it personally. It's an airplane, for Pete's sake.

The side-facing divan was not chosen (by owners) for the CL 30, so yes, it does seat 8. Unless you count the lav, which is an approved seat.