Landing a Westwind smoothly

[Capt1124]

I first started flying this airplane in the right seat and I don't remember much trouble getting a decent landing, except that I didn't get much practice. I got a left seat job and seemed to bounce the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** thing every time, not helped by my employer's grading every landing.

At this point I became aware of the opinion that the Westwind is a hard airplane to land. I have tried flaring really low but that didn't seem to help that much. I talked to an Astar pilot who swore he could grease it every time by landing fast and flat. I'm a little afraid to try that though. The kids I fly with (most of my FOs just fell of the turnip truck) seem to and pretty good, and they flare at what seems to be a high level.

My boss doesn't bug me abut my landings anymore, probably because he trusts me now, but I still want to get smoother. I only fly about 200 hours per year and Ihave to let the FO fly some.

Any ideas?

 

[h25b]

My advice would be to trade the thing in for something else if it's giving you that much trouble.


Ever since they used that aircraft in the movie "Johny Be Good" as the team plane for "'Ol Tex Horny Toads" I've never been able to look at it the same way...

 

[semperfido]

never flown one, but back to basic considerations:

1. look way down the runway in the flare
2. be on speed
3. pitch attitude
4. trim
5. fly the airplane
6. relax, think about something else

good luck, its not that important and some things just don't matter

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I found that on speed (ref+5 or so unless gusty) then holding it off a bit- nose high- worked best for me...remember a lot of trim...that pig is just very nose heavy..

flat and fast never worked well IMHO and real "greasers" were pure luck!

either way its kind of a truck...always a joy on a wet/icy runway with a crosswind....


.

PS - I also find the Astra/Galaxy to be completly different on landing than the 1124.

Good Luck!!

 

[h25b]

never flown one, but back to basic considerations:

1. look way down the runway in the flare
2. be on speed
3. pitch attitude
4. trim
5. fly the airplane
6. relax, think about something else

good luck, its not that important and some things just don't matter

This is good advice, every time I hit a slump in the 31A it's usually due to the first thing on the list.

 

[WW24dude]

I'm getting 60-70 hours a month in a WWI and a WWII. I've found you need to be:

-on speed crossing the fence (work it off, don't fly ref the whole appoach

-fly the glideslope, don't dip (bad habit)

-fly a good stabilized approach (69-71% works almost every time)

-don't pull it to idle at 100 feet like you might in other jets, Leave the power on until you just can't stand it, maybe pull a quarter handful off at 100 feet then idle at 30 feet (although you need to be looking out the window, just guessing at the 30 ft)

- aim the nose at the TDZ and flair at the last second. The WW sits so low so you kinda have to

BIGgest mistakes I see guys inthe WW do:

Idle at 100 feet
Flair too high
then run out of A/s...= boom

 

[cptsesso]

Try this:

1. Ref + 5 or so on short final.

2. Crossing the fence whatever power you have in (usually 72 to 75% or so) reduce the power to one half of that.

3. When you think it is time to flare wait a little more and then flare gradually while reducing the power to idle.

4. Use a lot of trim.

5. Note: If some fat ass is sitting on the seat or bench position closest to the cockpit, you will need a lot of trim and have to muscle the nose up. Under normal loading my trim ends up almost at the position I set for takeoff.

6. Hold the nose off as long as practical to bleed off speed. This really helps extend brake life.

This greases them on very well for me but I do get the occasional strut flexer now and again. I just tell the boss the strut seals needed to be exercised.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

I first started flying this airplane in the right seat and I don't remember much trouble getting a decent landing, except that I didn't get much practice. I got a left seat job and seemed to bounce the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** thing every time, not helped by my employer's grading every landing.

At this point I became aware of the opinion that the Westwind is a hard airplane to land. I have tried flaring really low but that didn't seem to help that much. I talked to an Astar pilot who swore he could grease it every time by landing fast and flat. I'm a little afraid to try that though. The kids I fly with (most of my FOs just fell of the turnip truck) seem to and pretty good, and they flare at what seems to be a high level.

My boss doesn't bug me abut my landings anymore, probably because he trusts me now, but I still want to get smoother. I only fly about 200 hours per year and Ihave to let the FO fly some.

Any ideas?

Two words: TRAILING LINK

Ace

 

[HMR]

I went for a few laps around the patch in a WW just to see what it was like. Now I know why IAI put the wings where they're supposed to be and went to trailing link gear on the Astra.

 

[Makesheepnervus]

I flew the "Jew Canoe" for about 3 years a short while back and can attest that they are hard to get soft landings out of, but with some practice and luck greasers are possible.

The technique that seemed to produce the most "greasers" was to follow all the obvious procedures; On or slightly above REF, stable approach, zero side drift, look down runway etc.

At 50 ft. I would smoothly bring power to idle with the goal of having just a squirt left by the time the mains were about 6 inches off, while doing this I would allow the A/C to naturaly pitch up due to the reduction of power while running the trim to keep the controls light. Finally, if I still hadn't touched down I would completely close the throttles and hold the pitch attittude while assuring that I had zero side drift, at this point the A/C would usually roll on nicely.

I found this technique produed more consistent results than aggresive flaring which would sometimes "Pile drive" the mains on to the runway if not causing excessive float.

Having said that, sometimes it is better to just be lucky rather than good!

 

[soarby007]

If you can land the westwind good one time of every 10, then you are doing ok. It is very difficult to "grease it on". All these suggestions are useful and maybe I'll try them. It is best to land flat and raise the nose about 6" in the flare with the one I fly. They aren't all the same. If you don't bounce it and keep it on the runway with a solid thump, you did ok.

The old saying is that a westwind makes a good pilot look bad and a great pilot look mediocre. It's the nature of the beast. I love the airplane even though a lot of guys hate it.

 

[suen1843]

It's really very easy. All you have to do is make sure the bottom of the nose wheel is EXACTLY 7 3/32 inch off the ground when the mains touch down.

 

[Diesel]

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/781416/L/

I guess this isn't the aproach profile.

 

[soarby007]

It's really very easy. All you have to do is make sure the bottom of the nose wheel is EXACTLY 7 3/32 inch off the ground when the mains touch down.

Nah, do 7 3/32 inch and you'll hit hard everytime. That's why it's so hard to land the thing. Like I said 6".

 

[bocefus]

How come nobody mentioned having the FO dump lift right at main wheel touchdown?

 

[Makesheepnervus]

Speaking of Lift Dumps, I can remember flying right seat with a couple of guys who inadvertently left the speed brakes out all the way to touch down and in both cases the landings were remarkably smooth. Maybe this is the secret?

 

[bocefus]

ding ding ding, We have a winner!

 

[HMR]

For you WW guys that trained at the Wilmington FSI- Did you ever have the sim instructor (I won't say name) who swears they used to pop the TR's at 50' in order to land on <3,000' strips. He had us do it in the Astra sim and it worked great. No way I would try it in real life.

 

[Makesheepnervus]

Never tried the TR trick, I have heard of it being done in the GII in real life as a short field technique. (There is a "Takeoff/Restow switch that by-passes the squat switches that makes it possible to deploy the TR's in flight)

Speaking of FSI Wilmington, how many out there had "Dick Washer" for an Astra or Westwind instructor?
(That is his real name by the way, and he is a great guy none the less)

 

[HMR]

DW is great. I'll be seeing him in a few weeks.