"known" icing and such...

[wingnutt]

ah yes, its that time of year...

for those that havent seen the conversation on the other board, im interested in your thoughts about icing. mostly the thoughts seem to center around "known" icing. i would post this on the general board, but im not interested in part 91 or 121 ops...only 135.

heres my theory thus far. "known" icing, in my mind, relates to pireps. but i have heard that in lieu of a pirep, or even when there is a pirep for no ice, forecast conditions rule. now then, we all know that loopholes are looked for in Part 135 ops, i mean, who has never blasted thru a low layer in order to keep from having to file to get out of class B without that annoying STAR

anywhoo...i was talking to another operator and he was arguing the fact that we cannot take off into an area of "forecast" icing (which for all intensive purposes means an Airmet). this is bogus i say. forecast only means that the conditions are conductive to icing, not that there will definately be icing. heck, if we were not allowed to take off into forecast icing, all 135 ops should have been grounded for about 2-3 days in the state of Texas about 2 weeks ago, except for those certified into icing condition of course. which brings up another point...

"certified" or "placarded". the other board mentioned something to the effect that as long as your aircraft wasnt placarded against flight into "known" icing conditions (mostly older aircraft, i believe), you are fine to take off and fly (some restriction, but i dont recall). then if you are placarded against it, one can still fly, as long as when the icing condition is entered, one exits it as soon as possible.

now then, ive talked to one of the "older, wiser" pilots in our line of work, and he tells me there is a reg that will allow you to continue a normal flight, even if there is a pirep and/or Airment, as long as you have solid evidence to believe otherwise. hes going to dig around and bring me the reg, but it could be awhile.

needless to say this is all moot if the FAA sees you land looking like a popsicle, and hes had a bad day...your probably in a world of trouble.

...confusion abounds

 

[throttlejockey]

If you are 135, I would suggest going to your ops manuals first and read that particular section. See if it may shed some light on the subject.

As for what is "controlling" I can honestly tell you that I don't know.

However, "known" to me relates to the here and now, whereas, "Forcasted" conditions such as are found in Airmets, are nothing more than educated guesses from meterologists, and they tend to want to cover their rear-ends.

That is why from October 1st to May 1st, there is always going to be an airmet for icing, even when their isn't a cloud in the sky.

As long as you use your common sense, you will probably never get violated, or killed.

 

[throttlejockey]

I forgot one more thing:

If you "think" that you can depart and stay out of icing conditions, it is my opinion that you are legal to go.

 

[StarChecker]

I diverted last week to ALB b/c my wing boots failed and I landed with a load of ice on the wings. I forgot there's a FSDO on the field, so of course....guess who was all over my airplane 30 seconds after I shut down? But he just wanted to know what happened and see my certificates. He said he was only interested in why the de-ice boots failed and what was going to be done to repair them before the airplane flew again.

There's an advisory circular out there....AC 135-something. It discusses flying in icing conditions and what the airplane has to have for it to be legal. Try getting it...it will probably answer your questions...

 

[wingnutt]

ok, i think i got the lowdown this morning. FAR 135.227 should cover it nicely. it basically duplicates FAR 91.527 also

starchecker, thats interesting because i didnt think any Barons were certified for "known" ice? whats your ops spec say in relation? ours does not seem to cover ice but for ground de-icing operations...nothing about flying into

P.S. deftone...no, i am still in piston twins. albeit looking for a 1900 job or any other turbine

 

[Airpiraterob]

known ice

theres de-ice and anti-ice systems. what you have determines if youre known ice capable. our e110's have the boots, inlet heat, window heat, prop heat, pitot heat. and thats enough for known ice. hardly different from a barron.

known ice means 'do you know thers ice there? if you do then you cant go there if youre plane isnt certified for it' now knowing weather ice is there depends on if it has been reported and if you have been given that report. other than that, you can fly there if you want to. if someone reports it as a pirep or verbal to center and center tells you, then you can't go.....technically.

barrons have all the equipment as i recall. however im not too sure about that window glycol spray deicer. seems to just pee on the window and make it blurry. thats about it. the ALB area certinly can get heavy with ice. whole upstate NY and north country area in fact becomes a daily exercise. spend about the same time looking at the wings as you do out front.

 

[jetdriven]

beginning on 1974 aicraft were required to be certified "known icing". I have a friend who owns a 1974 C421B. It is known icing. There were others on the field that has 421's newer than his but werent known icing certified, even though they had all the same equipment. The difference is when it left the factory. If it wasnt at that time known ice certified then it NEVER can be. Even if you go later and put on all the exact same equipment.

Check out the controller.com values for late barons and twin cessnas built after 1974. They always advertise K-ICEand there is a 20 grand difference in those that have it..

No plane can be known ice certified if it has an alcohol windshield or props. The only variation to this is the TKS systems.

Barons have been known to have both but the later model 58's with hot props and hot plate windshields are known ice. I used to fly a 1979 B-55 with alcohol props and w/s it was not. I think all airnets are 58's with hot windshield plates and hot props.

Airplanes built before 1974 its a gray area. Just dont ask for vectors to the nearest airport with a load of ice and expect to get off.

 

[Fr8Dog]

All of our BE99's and C402's are built before 1974 so we are in the grey area and we fly all year round up here in Wisconsin and the midwest without a problem. On the 99's everything is either the boots or electric deice/antice. On the 402's the windshield is alcohol and it works ok. We also have a C207 that has boots, alcohol prop and windshield that is certified for flight into forcast icing.

 

[StarChecker]

We have a few Barons that have the alcohol props and windshield. Fortunately, the vast majority are known ice certified (electric w/s and props). Dispatch tries to keep the alcohol Barons down south, but one of them found their way up north when I had to fly into Utica and ALB.
I was also trying to figure out why MX upgraded an crappy old alcohol Baron with a $50,000 brand new panel...but that's another issue.