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Kennedy getting clogged!

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Dizel8

Douglas metal
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
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2,817
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/12/nyregion/12jfk.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

Ending a Limit on Kennedy Flights Increases Passengers and Delays

By KEN BELSON
Published: July 12, 2007
In the past six months, Richard W. Petree Jr. has reluctantly settled into a routine. He boards an evening flight at Kennedy International Airport, sinks into his seat and waits for the pilot to tell passengers that their departure will be pushed back an hour. Then he returns to his BlackBerry until the next broadcast about further delays.

“An hour and a half to two hours in a queue on the tarmac is now absolutely typical,” said Mr. Petree, an investment banker from Manhattan who flies frequently to Budapest, Dubai, Istanbul, London, Riyadh and other points overseas. “No one looks up from their reading anymore when the announcement is made. And the airline acts as if we should expect delays.”

The situation is increasingly common at Kennedy, where delayed departures are now as bad as at Newark Liberty International and worse than at La Guardia.

The main cause was a federal decision at the start of the year to remove the limit at Kennedy on the number of arrivals and departures between 3 p.m. and 8 p.m. Not surprisingly, airlines rushed to offer new flights, quickly clogging the airspace, runways, taxiways and gates at Kennedy.

In many cases, smaller regional jets that seat only up to 70 passengers account for many of the new flights, yet the demands they place on air traffic controllers are similar to those of larger jets.
This helps explain why the number of flights at Kennedy surged 26.4 percent in the first four months of this year compared with the same period last year, even though the number of passengers increased only 12.9 percent over the previous year, according to monthly figures compiled by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which operates the airports. In all, Kennedy handles about 1,200 flights a day.

At La Guardia, where the limits are still in place, flights decreased 1 percent, and at Newark, where the limits were not in place, flights rose 6.9 percent.
To handle the additional traffic, the Federal Aviation Administration has started allowing Kennedy to use three of its four runways at the same time for longer periods during the day. Still, the Bureau of Transportation Statistics says that from January through May, 29.1 percent of all departures there have been delayed, up from 18.1 percent in the same period last year.

“The bottom line is you can only get so many planes in,” said William R. DeCota, director of aviation at the Port Authority. “The airspace and runways can probably be handled more efficiently, but that requires new procedures and technology.”

Beset by delays, in May the Port Authority set up a task force made up of airline executives, regulators and other officials to consider ways to loosen the current bottleneck at Kennedy as well as handling the additional 25 million passengers a year that are expected by 2015 at the area’s three major airports.
The task force, which will meet for the first time on Wednesday, can discuss such things as management of the taxiways and gates and issues related to the size of the planes — all factors related to the bottleneck — but it is not permitted to bring up scheduling because of antitrust regulations. In addition, the Port Authority has no jurisdiction over the airlines, many of which support using regional jets.

“There are a lot of markets where the distances aren’t that great, and for fuel and scheduling purposes, it makes more sense to use smaller planes,” said Sametta C. Barnett, director of government affairs at Delta Air Lines. “You have to have domestic feeds to get people from across the 50 states to the international flights.”

In the case of Delta, flights on smaller regional jets account for about 61 percent of Delta’s departures to 86 cities from Kennedy.

The airlines, while deploring the delays, do not speak in a single voice. JetBlue, which does not use any regional jets, says the delays penalize low-cost carriers that do not discount fares. As a result, JetBlue asked the aviation agency last month to reimpose traffic limits at Kennedy if delays cannot be reduced.

“The F.A.A. has a responsibility that demand at the airport does not outstrip capacity,” said Robert C. Land, senior vice president for government affairs at JetBlue.

International carriers, which bunch their departures for Europe and the Middle East at night, are also frustrated because their jumbo jets must also jockey with regional jets on the taxiways.
 
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“The delays are wreaking havoc because we have to pay our airport staff more overtime and folks are missing connections at our hubs in Germany,” said Jennifer Urbaniak, a spokeswoman for Lufthansa. “In every one of these cases, we try to make up for the delays by flying as fast we can. But that’s not the answer.”

The Port Authority is trying to persuade the airlines to cut the number of flights and use larger jets by reminding them of how delays affect their bottom line. Delivery companies like DHL, for instance, promise to repay customers whose packages are not delivered on time. JetBlue has a Customer Bill of Rights that entitles passengers whose scheduled departures are delayed to vouchers for discounts on future flights.

The Port Authority may also prefer that airlines use larger planes because they pay higher landing fees, which are based on an aircraft’s weight. The agency also collects $4.50 from every departing passenger with a paid ticket. That money goes toward airport improvements, and even though passenger numbers are up, this is another reason to use larger planes with more seats.

“If we get more people in, we get more money in,” Mr. DeCota said. “It means you pay off projects faster.”

For the longer term, the aviation agency is introducing new technology that will allow jets to fly more efficiently. It is certifying flight crews to use satellite-based systems that enhance a plane’s ability to make more precise turns as it prepares to land. By doing so, fewer planes to Kennedy will be on paths that overlap with flights heading to La Guardia, reducing delays there.Some JetBlue pilots are already using the system in clear weather at Kennedy.

In addition, another kind of satellite technology will enable planes to fly closer together, particularly in bad weather, reducing potential delays, and the aviation agency is redesigning the region’s airspace to redirect the flow of arrivals and departures more efficiently.

“We’re talking about satellite systems with a lot more precision that will change the role of air traffic controllers,” said Mike Cirillo, vice president for system operation services at the Federal Aviation Administration. Still, these are long-term solutions for current problems and are cold comfort to passengers waiting for hours to arrive and depart at Kennedy.

Victoria Printz, a business consultant from Manhattan, found that out while circling the airport for 90 minutes on a recent flight from London.
“The pilot said it was his longest approach to J.F.K. since he started flying,” she said.
 
The FAA has two mandates, safety and to promote aviation. The elimination of slot restrictions in JFK has done just the opposite in both cases.
 
I want to say that the mandate to "promote aviation" was taken out as early as 1996-97??
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/12/nyregion/12jfk.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

Ending a Limit on Kennedy Flights Increases Passengers and Delays


In the case of Delta, flights on smaller regional jets account for about 61 percent of Delta’s departures to 86 cities from Kennedy.

This is a good thing for pilots as there are more jobs for entry level regional people needing the time to be able to get to the majors sooner rather than later. Sucks for the passengers, however. At least the pilots are paid for sitting around on the tarmac.
 
It also really affects the profitability of a LCC called Jetblue, which would be a lot more profitable if it weren't using so much fuel and being late all day thanks to one back up. Oh well, I guess we could acquire you guys and alleviate the problem, and ofcourse staple everyone. I think that sounds like a good remedy to the congestion problem.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
It also really affects the profitability of a LCC called Jetblue, which would be a lot more profitable if it weren't using so much fuel and being late all day thanks to one back up. Oh well, I guess we could acquire you guys and alleviate the problem, and ofcourse staple everyone. I think that sounds like a good remedy to the congestion problem.


Bye Bye--General Lee
GL, either you're kidding, and just trying to get a rise out of a few of us, or you just provided more evidence yet again of what a classless act you really are. The jury's still out...
 
This is a good thing for pilots as there are more jobs for entry level regional people needing the time to be able to get to the majors sooner rather than later. Sucks for the passengers, however. At least the pilots are paid for sitting around on the tarmac.


That was tongue in cheek right?
 
This is what happens when you let the lcc's/rj's into interational airports, they clutter them up.
When jet blue finally goes out of business I'm sure that JFK will get some better PR!
 
GL, either you're kidding, and just trying to get a rise out of a few of us, or you just provided more evidence yet again of what a classless act you really are. The jury's still out...

I keeed, I keeeed. Sorta. Easy pardner.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
It also really affects the profitability of a LCC called Jetblue, which would be a lot more profitable if it weren't using so much fuel and being late all day thanks to one back up. Oh well, I guess we could acquire you guys and alleviate the problem, and ofcourse staple everyone. I think that sounds like a good remedy to the congestion problem.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I gotta agree with him on this one. Hope to see something similar done to Skybus in CMH and Va in SFO. Business is business. Don't stick your neck in the ring if you're not ready for the big fight.
 
I gotta agree with him on this one. Hope to see something similar done to Skybus in CMH and Va in SFO. Business is business. Don't stick your neck in the ring if you're not ready for the big fight.
That is what all the scabs at your airline said when they crossed the line. You are real brave when its time to slam LCC's but you can't police your own problem.
 
Delta is the majority of the problems at JFK half of the line up is filled with RJs and Dash 8's. They are doing it purposely to bogged down JetBlue flights at the expense of there own passengers. The Delta terminal is like a refugee camp daily. Slot restrictions will be coming in the future and aircraft sizes will have to increase to help declogged the airspace.
 
Testing out Mesa's Dash-8 for Delta Connection out of JFK was so brilliant! Who is the genius in Atlanta that came up with that idea? with all of that heavy international bags and to make it look like a major connecting hub like someone else across the river. It's good to hear that now all of New York city's airports are equally worthless though, now someone might do something about it. The media is catching on too and starting to show that the airlines aren't really the only to blame.
 
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you people really amaze me with this B****t about atc and airport issues. you really need to get a life outside aviation. i read this stuff for incredible laughs. hopefully i can get a response from someone with some type ot wit... flame away
 
Read the title of this thread and thought it was a story about Ted Kennedy getting constipated. To my relief it was a jetBlue bashing thread. Thank goodness... Teddy is a national treasure. I would hate to think of him suffering from any irregularity.
 
Delta is the majority of the problems at JFK half of the line up is filled with RJs and Dash 8's. They are doing it purposely to bogged down JetBlue flights at the expense of there own passengers. The Delta terminal is like a refugee camp daily. Slot restrictions will be coming in the future and aircraft sizes will have to increase to help declogged the airspace.

It's called providing needed domestic service and feed for your international flights. Where do you suggest the people from small markets who want to fly into NY go? LGA? Have you seen the US Airways logo 19 seaters clogging up the most coveted piece of airport real estate in the country? Newark? Just as bad.

The FAA needs to provide some smart solutions and plow some money in there to fix the airspace. One of the best things I've seen lately was DL working with the FAA to make 31L at KK available for takeoff during 04/22 operations. NY has to bypass the NIMBYS and fix the infrastructure. Jetblue must be bought out by someone and the problem would go away. Just joking on that last one. Sort of......
 
Still doesn't change the fact that Delta's huge increase in flights has caused the delay's. Hopefully, Delta will be bought and the problem will go away. Just kidding, kinda!
 
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“There are a lot of markets where the distances aren’t that great, and for fuel and scheduling purposes, it makes more sense to use smaller planes,”

Yeah, the distance between Dallas and New York is definitely small enough to require an RJ. That totally makes sense.

Delays probably wouldn't be as bad if they could get more than one airplane in or out of the alleys at a time.
 
rjs

The real reason is that its cheaper to operate 50-seaters than put a mainline aircraft on the route.

Delta guys sold out (you to GL) and continue to do so, cheering all the way as more rjs infest JFK. Delta continues to outsource most of their flying to the hoe's at every regional on the planet.

So you're hiring a few new chumps, have fun seating on reserve in JFK, oh and don't forget you have to cover LGA and EWR on your own dime.

When does Comair get those 90 seaters, oh i mean 76 seaters, until the next sell out.
 
Little doubt that Delta needs feed, that only makes sense, however, as opposed to a RJ flight every hour between Podunk and JFK, why not make it every other hour on a MD80 or 73.

Not sure, but seems like that would be cheaper?
 
Little doubt that Delta needs feed, that only makes sense, however, as opposed to a RJ flight every hour between Podunk and JFK, why not make it every other hour on a MD80 or 73.

Not sure, but seems like that would be cheaper?


We just don't have the equipment. We parked all of our 737-200s, 737-300s, 727s, MD11s, 767-200s, and L1011s since 9-11, and we are now short. We also have moved a lot of domestic 767-ERs to the INTL side, and have had to move 757s in on those routes, and then put 738s on the old 757 routes, and even MD88s are now doing the Song routes. That is another reason we have added 76 seat RJs in ATL, they are now doing the MD88 routes that used to fly 5 legs a day in and out of ATL.

We are working on getting some more used mainline aircraft right now, and that could free up some to do more from JFK. Our COO and CFO have stated that we want to be #1 in NYC, so I think they will be doing that when we have the spares. That is another reason we are hiring 50 a month now. Planes coming soon are 10-13 757ERs with winglets from AA (ex TWA), 10-20 737-700s, some 738s, 6-8 777LRs, and maybe some MD90s from China.

Also, those new 757ERs from AA will be used to clog up even more of the space in JFK, being used primarily for new Western European flights. I think initially they will replace some of the 767ERs on thinner routes for the Winter (JFK--Shannon starts first in October), but then come back in force for the Spring with new destinations. Flights that were to be reduced in the Wintertime with the 76ER now will probably be daily with a smaller version, the 757ER.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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The real reason is that its cheaper to operate 50-seaters than put a mainline aircraft on the route.

Delta guys sold out (you to GL) and continue to do so, cheering all the way as more rjs infest JFK. Delta continues to outsource most of their flying to the hoe's at every regional on the planet.

So you're hiring a few new chumps, have fun seating on reserve in JFK, oh and don't forget you have to cover LGA and EWR on your own dime.

When does Comair get those 90 seaters, oh i mean 76 seaters, until the next sell out.

No, it's not, and Whitehurst (our COO) has acknowledged this in the last few conference calls. Ever wonder why there are about 20 50 seaters sitting under the CVG tower? They are all going away. While mainline waits to get some mainline birds, 76 seaters will replace some of the 50 seaters (at the same rate for pilots at Comair, right? Well, close anyway). I would rather have a plane on the route that could generate revenue for us, with first class too so I could nonrev on something more comfortable, rather than a money losing 50 seater.

You sound very bitter, which is understandable in your situation.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
RJs and Dash 8s at JFK

It's called international feed - look it up. Would you rather have people from rural communities fly into congested LGA and then bus to JFK? Imagine how congested the streets between LGA and JFK would be then - you would be cranky about that too.

JFK is symbolic of NY - big, congested, smelly and tiresome. Boy, I don't envy those JetBlue guys at all having to work in that nightmare day in and day out...
 
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Little doubt that Delta needs feed, that only makes sense, however, as opposed to a RJ flight every hour between Podunk and JFK, why not make it every other hour on a MD80 or 73.

Not sure, but seems like that would be cheaper?
Yes, it would be cheaper, but making or saving money is not the main concern. The main concern is to inflict as much pain on JB as possible with small aircraft, and see how long we can last. Ask any DL employee, and they will all give answers like "international feed", "not enough mainline a/c", or "small communities will suffer." All those reasons are fine IF the a/c are scheduled wisely. Scheduling 30 a/c to arrive per hour to an operation that can only handle 15 is the problem. The truth is, DL has been trying to kill us since day one, and don't expect it to get any better until something real is done like slot restrictions or minimum a/c size. Competition is fine, we all expect it and it hopefully makes us better. But irrational scheduling of a/c to the point of hurting your own operation and chasing away your customers is just stupid. Until real change happens, pack your patience and plenty of gas every time you have to go through there, and hopefully sanity will eventually return.
 
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sooooo

Whatever GL and i don't work for any of your endless contractors, haven't flown an RJ in 4 years. you don't know me or my situation, just glad i'm nowhere near NY. Have fun with your NY battle while Airtran continues to steal to money right in front of you. Whirthurst is a redneck idiot, i hope he becomes CEO,you deserve each other.
Get out of the house and get some sun....
 
JFK is congested? I thought he was dead.
 

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