Joint ASA/XJT MEC meeting

[Leroy Smith]

I'm merely pointing out the round and round/stupidity/circlejerk-ness this has all become.

Yup.

As well as how it was expected that the ERJ side should just bow down and have to surrender.

Bow down to what? How? This sounds like a persecution-complex.

The circlejerkness seems to be a result of territory marking. All the energy that could have been put into something productive has been squandered on bickering between 2 pairing-into-line-aggregators. This is Boeing vs. Airbus. Chevy vs. Ford. Fruit Loops vs Cocoa Puffs. The idea of a new-and-improved PBS algorithm or whatever is all well and good, but a total distraction from the real issues and counter-productive. I think that a good portion of ASA's initial (and current, although its become a moot point) resistance was based on this notion. Why spend the time and energy re-inventing the wheel when there is already a good (ok, call it half-decent or at least not-completely-sucking) wheel already in use and ready for improvement? My uninformed impression is that the ERJ'ers started tilting at PBS windmills because they wanted to exert control over the situation. If there is going to be PBS, its gonna be our PBS, dammit! And it has spiraled into a tragic farce from there..... For F's sake!! If losing line-bidding is such a huge concession, fight for that!! We could be convinced to join you in fighting management for that. Or at least getting some real stuff in return for the concession you feel it would be to you to go to PBS. But this make believe argument for some new software is just silly.

Silly.


To all involved: who's right or what's right?

 

[dojetdriver]

Bow down to what? How? This sounds like a persecution-complex.

No, not really. If you've ever read the mantras of various CRJ pilots that like to post the XJT message board, there was A LOT of "you guys need to get on board" as well as "get in line" and 'we saved you" type rhetoric. It's been on here, as well as APC.

And it's NOT just over the PBS issue. The ERJ side wanted as a MINIMUM the current ERJ CBA with hourly rate increases. Again, at a MINIMUM. This was seem as "unreasonable", "unwilling to work with management", whatever you choose to label it. IOW, bow down to the CRJ MEC and what the CRJ MEC thinks should be negotiated because the ERJ pilots wanted to hold onto their contract will drive the company out of business and burn the house down blah blah blah.........

The circlejerkness seems to be a result of territory marking. All the energy that could have been put into something productive has been squandered on bickering between 2 pairing-into-line-aggregators.

Agree with this, but read above to fully understand what I was getting at.

If losing line-bidding is such a huge concession, fight for that!! We could be convinced to join you in fighting management for that.

You may believe that, but that doesn't seem to be the overall feelings of the CRJ group.

Or at least getting some real stuff in return for the concession you feel it would be to you to go to PBS. But this make believe argument for some new software is just silly.

Agree, but regardless of what bidding system prevails, NONE of them will be what EITHER side knows now. It's a forgone conclusion that that company DOESN'T want line bid. It's ALSO a forgone conclusion that the company want's vacation low GONE YESTERDAY. The "give" to hold on to those would be severe.

Silly.

Agree

To all involved: who's right or what's right?

Agree. But "what's right" ISN'T the same for everybody. Some people are NOTHING but money motivated. Others are purely QOL motivated, or whatever else. Commuter vs. hub dweller, senior vs. junior, etc etc etc

 

[Leroy Smith]

Agree

Emotion and Ego seem to be big drivers of all this mess. Take the emotional component out of the equation and something meaningful could get done. Ignore the "we saved you" etc. drivel. Ignore the ones fighting for the sake of fighting. Dont feed the trolls. Letting them frame your debate or reacting to their dumbassery just weakens you. And trying to assign "blame" is the surest way to not accomplish anything.

I hope that common sense will start kicking in and some progress made. While there will probably be concessions overall, I hope there will be at least some improvements for junior folks now that juniority is no longer a short lived affliction. 5 years on reserve as an FO? 7+ year upgrades and then years of reserve, at a regional? Madness!!!

Who's right is irrelevant. What's right is everything.

 

[centralpilot]

I hope that common sense will start kicking in and some progress made. While there will probably be concessions overall, I hope there will be at least some improvements for junior folks now that juniority is no longer a short lived affliction. 5 years on reserve as an FO? 7+ year upgrades and then years of reserve, at a regional? Madness!!!

Well said. Hopefully we will see progress past this nonsense in the near future. If JoeMerchant is worried I can only hope that means something might change from the status quo.

 

[Nevets]

I think that a good portion of ASA's initial (and current, although its become a moot point) resistance was based on this notion. Why spend the time and energy re-inventing the wheel when there is already a good (ok, call it half-decent or at least not-completely-sucking) wheel already in use and ready for improvement? My uninformed impression is that the ERJ'ers started tilting at PBS windmills because they wanted to exert control over the situation. If there is going to be PBS, its gonna be our PBS, dammit! And it has spiraled into a tragic farce from there..... For F's sake!! If losing line-bidding is such a huge concession, fight for that!! We could be convinced to join you in fighting management for that. Or at least getting some real stuff in return for the concession you feel it would be to you to go to PBS. But this make believe argument for some new software is just silly.

Silly.


To all involved: who's right or what's right?

This is not a correct assumption. Thinking that we can just go with flight line and tweak it is as plausible as going with our line bidding and work rules with some tweaks to that. Either is not going to happen and that is the starting point that the XJT MEC was starting from. Flight line as is was deemed to be a concession, let alone the tweaking management would want from vacation low (the best thing about flight line). And they found an alternative that they believe will maintain status quo as far as QOL. So given that management doesn't want our line bidding and neither does your MEC, and that the company wants to gut vacation low and that that would result in a vast concession for the ERJ side, it's reasonable to think that the XJT MEC would pursue an achievable alternative that they believe would have maintain our QOL and thus be a windfall for the CRJ side.

It's not emotional, otherwise they would have also issued a line bidding or no merger ultimatum and its not a control issue as much as that they do want at the very least maintain our QOL. That's no too much to ask for in my worthless opinion.

 

[surreal1221]

There is a joint ASA/XJT MEC meeting this week and SOME of the ASA MEC members are considering giving into the XJT MEC and switching PBS systems. If you don't want an untried, globalized PBS system, I suggest you start calling your reps.

Let me know how this worked out.

 

[JumpersAway]

I'm laughing about the "get on board" rehtoric..........This doesn't represent anything close to what the bulk of the CRJ folks desire. Basing 1600 pilots on the ravings of 20 of the noisiest is insane- especially when it comes off of an internet forum that is renowned for B.S. . Geez- get real!!!! I think we can all agree, however, that we seek a contract that allows our pilot group to enjoy a good and reasonable QOL, compensation commensurate with our contribution to the operation, and some dignity and respect at work. Stability and working with the company to ensure long term success beyond those with far worse pilot contracts is also important.

 

[Nevets]

I'm laughing about the "get on board" rehtoric..........This doesn't represent anything close to what the bulk of the CRJ folks desire. Basing 1600 pilots on the ravings of 20 of the noisiest is insane- especially when it comes off of an internet forum that is renowned for B.S. . Geez- get real!!!! I think we can all agree, however, that we seek a contract that allows our pilot group to enjoy a good and reasonable QOL, compensation commensurate with our contribution to the operation, and some dignity and respect at work. Stability and working with the company to ensure long term success beyond those with far worse pilot contracts is also important.

I would like to take the best of each contract (vacation accrual, sick accrual, 401k matching, B fund, health benefit premium cap, etc) and pay rate commensurate with inflation from amendable date plus a fair raise. I think that would result in a contract that allows our pilot group to enjoy a good and reasonable QOL, compensation commensurate with our contribution to the operation. What say you about that?

 

[Clutch]

Finally something productive

 

[Speedtape]

There is a joint ASA/XJT MEC meeting this week and SOME of the ASA MEC members are considering giving into the XJT MEC and switching PBS systems. If you don't want an untried, globalized PBS system, I suggest you start calling your reps.

You are incorrect according to the 2 reps I spoke with.