JetBlue posts $13 million profit

[FlyDeltasJets]

Re: Nice Company Jeff G - Good Luck

Now why don't all you self serving mainline gurus jump all over the JetBlue pilots, tell them how unqualified, uneducated and inferior they are and complain about how they're stealing YOUR flying and degrading the profession because they work for peanuts?

Surplus,

I don't know if I am a "self-serving mainline guru", and I never once told anyone that they were "unqualified, etc".

I have noticed, however, on your last couple of posts that you have mentioned the so-called "second tier" airlines and the threat that they are to mainline pilots. You found it ironic that none of us have mentioned this threat. I think Jeff will back me up that I have stated many times that I think it is a threat to our profession when any airline competes on the basis of employee salaries. I have mentioned again and again that wages are the largest airline expense, and low-fare airlines are usually able to offer such unreasonably low fares primarily due to the fact that they pay their employees less than the other airlines. That is troubling to me, and I have stated so on many occasions, which prompted many discussions.

I do not want to repeat any of those discussions today, as they have been done to death! I only posted this to set the record straight that some of us have noticed the threat, and our attention is not, as you seem to think, focused only on rj's.

I want to make it clear that, despite what some think of us, I have never looked down on anyone because of the size of his airplane, or what airline he flies for. I know that all of us want the same thing, to enjoy flying airplanes and be paid well for it! We just have taken different routes to this end. I have been very lucky (before the furlough) to have reached an airline at the top of the pay scale. I see factors which threaten that payscale. That frightens me, because I firmly believe that pilots deserve to be very well paid. I love to see pilots at any airline achieve great contracts, and I wish all of you out there the best in our continuing fight to protect an improve our profession. I know that we cannot always agree on the best method to do so, but I believe that we all want to leave the job better than it was when we arrived.

 

[TurboS7]

I know for a fact that JB has had all payments defered for the first three years after delivery. Check into your facts and check out the lease agreement with Airbus. There is nothing wrong with it, it is a good deal and a must to negociate.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,

I don't know if I am a "self-serving mainline guru", and I never once told anyone that they were "unqualified, etc".

FlyDeltaJets,

Apologies to you personally. You and I have engaged in many long conversations here and I've told you before that I appreciated your willingness to debate and the way you handle yourself.

You are however, an exception and not the rule. Particularly in your own pilot group.

As I don't have to tell you, there are many other forums in which these issues are discussed, some public, some private. In almost every one of them, including this one, regional pilots have been called everything under the sun. That includes, uneducated, wannabees, unqualified, shady backrgounds, dui's, etc., etc.. Always by pilots of major airlines, noteably Delta, who don't like the fact that we are flying RJs. I wish it were not so, but it is.

I agree also that you have been one of the few (among 10,000 at your airline alone) that has ever mentioned a JBlue, AirTran, Spirit, etc., as a cause of your low wage concerns. 98% of the time, the attack is focused on the RJ and its pilots accused of taking your jobs. You have had a few other mainline pilots agree with you, but mostly there is silence with respect to what I call the 2nd tier airlines. I think in fairness even you will agree with that.

I think you should be far more concerned with the "discount" airlines and their low wages because they operate the same equipment that you do. As a matter of fact, at least 3 of you (UAL, DAL, AAA) have gone so far as to create B scales withing your own airline in an effort to compete, not protect or protest. Some of that B Scale remains in place at Delta today. Perhaps the fact that you (pl) can't control them, but think you can control the RJ is the reason. The weakest animal in the flock is usually the one the predator attacks.

So, If I failed to acknowledge your exception to the rules and thereby included you in the generality, I'm sorry. Although I strive for perfection, alas, it has eluded me. I admit that is somewhat of an excuse, but it is also true. Would you settle for calling it a "reason"?

I want to make it clear that, despite what some think of us, I have never looked down on anyone because of the size of his airplane, or what airline he flies for.

Again, you personally get credit for this because it is due. The overwhelming majority of your mainline peers are not due this credit and won't get it from me unless they change their attitudes. Within our labor union, the attitude of which I spoke is more rife than anywhere. If in the future you decide to participate actively in the union you'll have a chance to see it first hand.

I do think we ultimately have the same objective, i.e., the well being of ALL airline pilots. However, when your peers fail to acknowledge that I too am an airline pilot it annoys me. Especially since I've had the good fortune to be one far longer than most of those who think otherwise.

I don't think most regional pilots have taken a "different route". Most have not yet reached the milepost on the highway, but the route is the same and so is the destination.

Yes, you are "lucky" to be where you are (the furlough is only a temporary thing. Remember, I've been furloughed too.) just as I was lucky to do what I have done. In reality we are all in the same boat. The sad part is that we row in opposite directions far too often. The boat is going in circles.

I see factors which threaten that payscale. That frightens me, because I firmly believe that pilots deserve to be very well paid.

I see those factors too and like you I think they are dangerous. Where we disagree is what to do about it. I believe that we cannot defend the profession by attempting to eliminate a significant portion of it. We must defend ALL of the profession, not just the top rung. If we do this, it follows the top of the ladder will also be protected.

When we try to protect the top of the ladder by sawing off the bottom, the result is simple: whomever is on the top now, will fall. I feel we are in that position now or close to it. The mainline guys are doing the sawing and the ladder will ultimately come down on them. That is why I see a need for a change in methodology.

I know that we cannot always agree on the best method to do so, but I believe that we all want to leave the job better than it was when we arrived.

It is true that we cannot always agree FDJ, but this issue is so critical to our general welfare that we must find consensus, even if it requires compromise. If we fail to do so, we will NOT leave the job better than when we arrived.

Best regards,

 

[JayDub]

First of all...

Surplus1, well said.

TurboS7; you are wrong. Check the prospectus for the IPO under "Aircraft rent" for 2001. You don't pay that kind of money for something you are getting for free. How else can I explain this to you??? We paid x amount for aircraft that according to you we did not pay. Please cite references, and dates, at the very least, as to how the prospectus is wrong.

FlyDeltaJets,

Although you and I disagree you seem to me to be a "bu## &&it walks, money talks" kind of person. Here are the simple facts: I was hired by jetBlue on April 23, 2001. I am presently making $113.oo/hr. Are the people hired by your company (give or take a month) on April 23, 2001 making $113.00/hr? If not, I think your company is the one that is not paying professional wages. Please cite specific examples if you respond.

Respectfully,

JayDub

 

[Jeff G]

I know for a fact that JB has had all payments defered for the first three years after delivery. Check into your facts and check out the lease agreement with Airbus. There is nothing wrong with it, it is a good deal and a must to negociate.

I'll take it a step further from JayDub. JB doesn't even lease from Airbus, and only about half the planes are leased anyway. The leased aircraft come from IFLC, Wells Fargo, and Mitsui. The other aircraft are mortgaged, and there's not a bank in the world willing to give an airline a no-money-down, no-payments-until-2004 loan on a $50 million asset. Get real. "I know for a fact" that you don't have your facts straight this time.

I think Jeff will back me up that I have stated many times that I think it is a threat to our profession when any airline competes on the basis of employee salaries. I have mentioned again and again that wages are the largest airline expense, and low-fare airlines are usually able to offer such unreasonably low fares primarily due to the fact that they pay their employees less than the other airlines.

FlyDeltasJets, we don't often agree, but you're a gentleman in the field of battle. I'll go along with you partway on this point. Startup carriers do pay less in general. JetBlue does also, on a strict comparison of pay scales. But JetBlue pilots advance much faster to the upper rungs than at more established carriers, so the impact to the individual, and therefore the "profession" is negligible. In addition, the company gets the benefit of not having anyone at the higher end of the longevity scale, because, well, nobody has been here long enough! It's a lot to expect that a startup company will spring fully formed into existence, complete with a major airline contract and employees at the 12 year payscale, all in order to play fair with the likes of Delta. I think Delta has enough advantages as an established carrier that the lower overall wages paid at the startup only makes a small dent overall. I'm afraid there's more going on in the current airline industry than just lower wages = lower fares. There's also better service = higher loads. That's where Delta, et al may need to play catchup, rather than wring their hands over big, mean JetBlue with its 24 airplanes.

 

[TurboS7]

My information was inside info from one of your Director's and I will leave it at that.

 

[Jeff G]

So is mine, and I suspect that mine's bigger than yours.

 

[Boeingman]

QUOTE]Originally posted by JayDub
FlyDeltaJets,

Although you and I disagree you seem to me to be a "bu## &&it walks, money talks" kind of person. Here are the simple facts: I was hired by jetBlue on April 23, 2001. I am presently making $113.oo/hr. Are the people hired by your company (give or take a month) on April 23, 2001 making $113.00/hr? If not, I think your company is the one that is not paying professional wages. Please cite specific examples if you respond.

Respectfully,

JayDub [/QUOTE]

JayDub:

FDJ enjoyed bragging to me about his brand spanking new contract while rubbing it my face comparing our 5 year old document. What he and other DAL pilots do not like to discuss is their own continued self prostituting B scale within their own airline, DAL Express. I do not have a copy of the DAL Express pay rates, but I'd bet they are similar on a longevity basis with JB. ALPA spent years fighting to eradicate this plague yet it flourishes within a large ALPA pilot group. Go figure.

Your comment about professional wages is also true. DAL in other company positions has historically paid below industry average.
Hopefully, JB will bring it's pay in line with other carriers as you grow. And grow you will as you decimate AA out of JFK.

Although I feel for the guy being out of work, I think he learned a good lesson last month any of these dream employers will crap on their employees in tough times. Real or a management induced fantasy.

Jeff G:

I Have to agree with you and I think many who complain about JB are just jealous of your success. I also believe it is fantasy about the free airplanes.

Good luck to you both and all at JB.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

boeing,

I don't want to rehash our entire argument, but I never rubbed your five year old deal in your face. If you remember, you were the first to bring up any discussion of pay. I didn't. All I did was suggest that you shouldn't criticize any of our pay rates, because even our previous contract had higher rates than yours. My bringing up your contract was merely a case of pointing out your glass house while you were throwing stones. No disrespect was intended, nor did I try to "brag". If you misunderstood my intent, I apologize.

For what it is worth, I couldn't agree with you more regarding our DEX rates. I think it is a sin that we did not eliminate that "b" scale on our last contract, although I think you will agree that $229.67 (737-700) and $206.79 (-200) per hour is not awful, especially when compared to other carriers. That, however, does not change the fact that it is a b scale, and should be done away with. I would suggest, however, that perhaps we would have had more luck eliminating it had LUV pilots been paid a little better. After all, DEX arose simply to compete with LUV. The DEX wages are higher than LUV's, but not as high as they should be, due to management's insistence that they would not go very far above the LUV payscales. I am looking forward to SWA's next contract, when their pilots eliminate that argument from our management's playbook. In doing so, they will raise the bar for all of us, and I wish them luck.

Also, I suggest that you recheck your facts regarding Delta's employee wages. They are always at or near the top, due to management's fear of more unions on the property.

Lastly, I take exception to your tone that I needed a furlough to teach me a lesson. I dare say I know more about this industry than most (granted, many know more than I), and I didn't need to lose my job to learn to distrust management. That happened a long time ago. This is only a "dream job" because of the gains for which we as pilots have fought for so long. I knew that before the furlough, and I know it now.

Dub and Jeff,
I wish you both the best and I am glad to hear that you are enjoying good pay as a result of your hard work and good timing. I agree that we compete on many fronts besides employee wages, and I grant you that jb is doing a wonderful job. We would be wise to learn a few lessons from you. My statement regarding pay was not specifically against jb, but a general idea that airlines with lower payrates give management just another tool to battle wage increases at other airlines. I agree, however, that you do deserve a break because of your age. I think, while it may take a while, jb is certainly on the right track, and hopefully your wages will continue to increase. I know that DN has already given you guys a raise. I commend him, and you, and wish you continued good luck.

I do hope that you will agree, however, that there are airlines out there who are not so young who continue to compete by paying their employees less. As employee costs are an airline's largest expense, this gives them a considerable advantage. My point all along has been that it benefits our profession as a whole anytime any pilot group gets a raise. I hope to see us fight for what we deserve, and not be afraid to point out factors which may negatively affect us.