Jail for walking on the ramp??!!

[ilvsleep]

I had a question after I returned from a cross-country which included a stop in Yakima, WA. We stopped at the local FBO and got a ride to the terminal so we could get something to eat. It turned out the crew car was the fuel truck so when we were done with lunch he (believe his name was Norman, nice guy!) was refueling a Horizon dash-8 which was going to take like a half hour. We decided to walk back to our airplane (PA28RT201) all the way at the other end of the field. We had an instructor with us but his recollection of the rules may have been rusty. We stayed on the ramp area which went around the non-movement area near the terminal, and did not cross any solid or dashed lines. About three-quarters of the way there four airport firefighters came out and stopped us, kicked us out of the airport after recording our information, and called airport security who was waiting for us when we finally navigated our way back to the FBO through a construction area and a couple of sidestreets. We no longer had the airport in sight!!! I understand why the firefighters reacted like that (post 9/11) but I don't agree with their decision. I believe pilots and passengers having business on the ramp are allowed to be there no matter what part of the ramp you are on. I looked in the AIM and the FAR's when I got home and could not find anything that pertained to walking on the ramp. I can understand at a more congested airport why walking on the ramp could be a potential problem but there were no airplanes taxiing or landing while we walked. Anyway airport security threatened to have the police come pick us up and they didn't even see what happened. It took about a half hour of back and forth "conversation" for them to calm down. At my home airport which has about five times the traffic as YKM we walk on the ramp to get coffee at the FBO all the time. Can somebody enlighten me please?

 

[JetBlast2000]

A tough one… I’ve been to lots of a/p’s both large and small. I’ve yet to see any consistent rules. The large a/p tend to be very strict. The regs you’re looking for are CFR49 Vol. 8 subpart XII part 1500-1699. Unless you’re a lawyer I’m not sure you’ll find what your after.

Good luck…

 

[ilvsleep]

thanks for the tip....I read through all the parts that I thought might pertain to what happened and I found 1507.105 . So that at least helps but it is still kinda fuzzy because we weren't in a SIDA or an AOA(I don't think but I guess their whole airport could be an AOA but there were no signs at the gate we came back in at denoting the fact, or anything metioning the use of identification badges). Thanks for your help and I think I'll wait for the ride next time....

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

Welcome to the Fourth Reich...

...and don't forget, if someone at the TSA gets a hair up their you-know-what as a result of an incident like this, they can COMMAND the FAA to pull all of your certificates and you have no legal recourse. Something to bear in mind when you're deciding who to vote for in a few weeks....

 

[DaveJ]

Only for non-citizens

Actually, I believe that TSA has suspended their revocation rule for citizens, but it is still in effect for non-citizen certificate holders.

 

[ilvsleep]

thanks Lord, and Dave! I think I'll stick with not trying to provoke anybody (by accident or otherwise) its not worth possibly getting arrested or revoked! Either way I don't recommend YKM to anybody right now anyway because of Mt. St. Helens. It went off the first time while we were in the air, got some great video of it!

 

[pilotman2105]

This story seems a little fuzzy to me. Why did the firefighters stop you exactly? What "information" did they take? Was the fact that you were pilots and transacting business on the airport not enough of a reason for them? This honestly sounds like one of two things: 1-Airport firefighters on a power trip with nothing to do, or more likely, 2-A ground of pilots/buddies walking all over the airport possibly causing other needless commotion.

Regardless, when I'm on or near an airport, I always make sure to specifically have on me my certificates and a photo ID. It doesn't matter if I'm flying or not. By having those things on me, my identity and reason for being there can be more surely substantiated. My passengers are also always instructed to bring a photo ID. No ID, no flight. Not because I don't know my passengers, but because I don't want the hassle of running into some over-zellous cop/security "officer"/firefighter/FBO secretary/TSA mouse-kateer/line boy who thinks it's their civic duty to play Inspector Gadget.

Finally, I also don't "take the long way around" (especially "inside the fence") anytime that I need to walk anywhere. I get to where I'm going in the most direct fashion. Yeah, it may not be the most enjoyable walk, but it's a sign of the times.

 

[ilvsleep]

This story seems a little fuzzy to me. Why did the firefighters stop you exactly? What "information" did they take? Was the fact that you were pilots and transacting business on the airport not enough of a reason for them? This honestly sounds like one of two things: 1-Airport firefighters on a power trip with nothing to do, or more likely, 2-A ground of pilots/buddies walking all over the airport possibly causing other needless commotion.

It may have been a little of #1 (in my biased eyes) and a little #2 in their eyes. But the route we decided on was actually the shortest distance although it was inside the fence. I think we probably should've (and will next time if there is one) just leave the airport and walk the streets back. We did have all ID necessary including CFI licence. All passengers were pilots.

Finally, I also don't "take the long way around" (especially "inside the fence") anytime that I need to walk anywhere. I get to where I'm going in the most direct fashion. Yeah, it may not be the most enjoyable walk, but it's a sign of the times.

We definitely didn't take the long way if anything it was the most direct route and I think that turned out to be the "disagreement". Anyway I'm glad nothing happened we just made sure to act extra nice and do everthing they asked so as not to provoke them more than we apparently had already.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

There are several issues here that may or may not be in play. First, were you transeting an area used by an airline or the military (or are there any areas on the airport that are used by those two groups). Second, would you have been able to taxi an aircraft without clearance in that area?

I am thinking they overreacted. Definitely have yourself and your pilot buddies document the incident (write down their recolections and save them someplace safe) in case something happens.

 

[FN FAL]

...and don't forget, if someone at the TSA gets a hair up their you-know-what as a result of an incident like this, they can COMMAND the FAA to pull all of your certificates and you have no legal recourse. Something to bear in mind when you're deciding who to vote for in a few weeks....

You did know that a person doesn't have to wait untill Kerry is in office in order to have a legal partnership agreement drawn up between homosexual life partners?

 

[Vector4fun]

You'd be better off not walking on any ramp except the FBO where you're parked or have business at any airport with scheduled airline service. Airport security is very strict nowadays. Before anyone goes thinking the airport employees are ruthless security "Nazis" or anything, be aware the airport can and will be fined by the FAA/TSA for allowing security breeches. I work in the Tower and have more security clearances than most anyone working on the ramp, but I'm not allowed on the ramps or anywhere else except an FBO where I have business. I'd never be allowed on an airline ramp without escort. I have to have permission from airport police to park my airplane near the tower, and it's 600 yards from the terminal building.....Get used to it....

 

[Tripower455]

You'd be better off not walking on any ramp except the FBO where you're parked or have business at any airport with scheduled airline service. Airport security is very strict nowadays. Before anyone goes thinking the airport employees are ruthless security "Nazis" or anything, be aware the airport can and will be fined by the FAA/TSA for allowing security breeches. I work in the Tower and have more security clearances than most anyone working on the ramp, but I'm not allowed on the ramps or anywhere else except an FBO where I have business. I'd never be allowed on an airline ramp without escort. I have to have permission from airport police to park my airplane near the tower, and it's 600 yards from the terminal building.....Get used to it....

Or get a job as a provisioner, aircraft cleaner or any other job on the airport except pilot (and ATC it seems) and you can have carte blanche access to wherever you want to go, sans the hassle of passenger screening! You will even be authorized to escort the non trusted employees (pilots, ATC guys terrorists etc) in the "secure" area.

FWIW, I will never "get used to it", since it makes no sense whatsover........ It is all ineffective eyewash. Would another airplane used as a WMD be what it takes to actually do something about security?

I am glad that I am not involved in GA anymore. Geez, you can't even walk to/from your airplane/FBO at a small airport without getting arrested nowadays?

 

[troy]

The firefighters were just doing their job. It is everyone's job to query anyone without a visible badge. We're to do in on the ramp here in FSD. A couple of reasons:
1. Security (obvious)
2. TSA--if I were to walk past a TSA undercover agent without asking him for his badge, I would be the one in trouble.

I don't know why they didn't let you continue on your way, It was probably the "wrong" way or not expected. Just focus on the fact that you got away with your cert's the same day. They are just "trying" to keep us safe.

 

[pilotman2105]

TSA--if I were to walk past a TSA undercover agent without asking him for his badge, I would be the one in trouble.

Are you serious? The TSA does these "undercover inspections" to make sure that people/employees are checking?

 

[avbug]

Are you kidding? TSA and FAA both...FAA has been doing it for years. Teams spend the year going from airport to airport attempting to walk into hangars, across ramps, and break security. Those who fail to challenge them are frequently fined, and often lose their SIDA or other badges and clearances. You're surprised by this?

I never walk around a ramp unless I've checked with the FBO first, to determine if it's acceptable. Never the less, sometimes I'm still stopped and asked for identification. If it's a large airport or one that obviously has a security program in effect, I don't bother at all. I just don't go walking around the ramp.

From the description of this evoloution one might guess that the FBO employe/fuel truck driver was never consulted regarding the walk back to the FBO. No mention has been made of enquiring with the FBO at any time regarding ramp access or walking across the airport.

If a secure area such as the SIDA lies between you and your destination, a good policy is don't walk there. Not through it, not skirting around where you think it begins and ends (it may not be the red line you're walking around, incidentally). Call up the tower if you can't find anybody else to ask; query. I've gone so far as to call the tower before, and to receive a light gun signal clearing me to cross movement areas and runways on my way to a cafe (Jeffco, CO).

Never assume it's okay to walk about.

As for Tripower's bitterness...it's not just pilots that are subject to security. I've been there enough times when turning wrenches, too. I'm sick to death of hearing stuffed shirts whine about taking off their shoes. Get used to it. Right or wrong, the world is not ending. Take a valium or two, call in sick. Getting high and mighty over a shoe or a wand isn't worth it. Enough, already.

 

[pilotman2105]

Are you kidding? TSA and FAA both...FAA has been doing it for years. Teams spend the year going from airport to airport attempting to walk into hangars, across ramps, and break security. Those who fail to challenge them are frequently fined, and often lose their SIDA or other badges and clearances. You're surprised by this?

I knew about the attempts by FAA/TSA to get weapons and otherwise cause "issues" deliberately at security checkpoints in passenger terminals. I guess that I never just continued that train of thought to the various GA terminals, ramps, etc.

Honestly, it does seem like a bit of waste of FAA/TSA energy. But, thus is our government...

 

[350DRIVER]

Are you kidding? TSA and FAA both...FAA has been doing it for years. Teams spend the year going from airport to airport attempting to walk into hangars, across ramps, and break security. Those who fail to challenge them are frequently fined, and often lose their SIDA or other badges and clearances. You're surprised by this?

I never walk around a ramp unless I've checked with the FBO first, to determine if it's acceptable. Never the less, sometimes I'm still stopped and asked for identification. If it's a large airport or one that obviously has a security program in effect, I don't bother at all. I just don't go walking around the ramp.

From the description of this evoloution one might guess that the FBO employe/fuel truck driver was never consulted regarding the walk back to the FBO. No mention has been made of enquiring with the FBO at any time regarding ramp access or walking across the airport.

If a secure area such as the SIDA lies between you and your destination, a good policy is don't walk there. Not through it, not skirting around where you think it begins and ends (it may not be the red line you're walking around, incidentally). Call up the tower if you can't find anybody else to ask; query. I've gone so far as to call the tower before, and to receive a light gun signal clearing me to cross movement areas and runways on my way to a cafe (Jeffco, CO).

Never assume it's okay to walk about.

As for Tripower's bitterness...it's not just pilots that are subject to security. I've been there enough times when turning wrenches, too. I'm sick to death of hearing stuffed shirts whine about taking off their shoes. Get used to it. Right or wrong, the world is not ending. Take a valium or two, call in sick. Getting high and mighty over a shoe or a wand isn't worth it. Enough, already.

Well said avbug, my exact same thoughts. Some of these responses have been quite comical to put it mildly,

3 5 0

 

[Tripower455]

As for Tripower's bitterness...it's not just pilots that are subject to security. I've been there enough times when turning wrenches, too. I'm sick to death of hearing stuffed shirts whine about taking off their shoes. Get used to it. Right or wrong, the world is not ending. Take a valium or two, call in sick. Getting high and mighty over a shoe or a wand isn't worth it. Enough, already.

You're right, it's not just pilots. It's flight attendants and passengers too.

I am sick to death of having personal items PILFERED, FOR NO REASON, then seeing a mechanic wearing a friggin leatherman tool, or worse, an airport cleaner (who doesn't speak a lick of english) with a box cutter, in the "secure" area.

Even after I've been relieved of my eyeglass screwdriver or allen wrench, I am still going to take over and have complete control of a potential weapon of mass destruction. Either I am trusted, or I am not. If I am not trusted, I certainly should not be given control of an airliner. If I am trusted, I shouldn't have to stand in my socks while being felt up before going to work.

Subjecting pilots to passenger screening accomplishes absolutely nothing. And yes, I am bitter about it, especially when the sole reason we are screened is the result of the actions of a ramper (who committed mass murder by smuggling a weapon in the back door), who are still not.

Why am I a "stuffed shirt" for wanting to be treated like EVERY OTHER EMPLOYEE at the airport? Why am I different? Eyewash value perhaps? Does it make sense that people in high turnover, entry level jobs aren't searched prior to entering the "secure" area, yet "stuffed shirt" pilots, who are going to take over an airplane whether or not they have a mini swiss army knife in their posession, are standing in their socks?

Is taking off your shoes, getting wanded or bag dumped FOR NO REASON, worth getting "bitter" over? Do it every friggin day, FOR NO REASON, and see if you aren't bitter.

Hopefully, it will be mandatory for you guys soon, as the still unsecured back door is ripe for exploitation by the bad guys.

I'd love to watch you explain to the android who is taking your screwdriver away that you need it to do your job. Let me know how it goes......

FWIW, Airport security is my #1 pet peeve, and has been for going on 16 years now. If I seem bitter about it, oh well. I am. My life, (and the lives of my pax) and livelihood depend on tight security, yet, we get nothing but eyewash time and time again. What will it take to actually get the feds to do what it takes to secure the airports? Feeling up pilots, and letting entry level employees in the back door with nary a glance is not the answer.

 

[avbug]

Hopefully, it will be mandatory for you guys soon, as the still unsecured back door is ripe for exploitation by the bad guys.

You guys? Is that anything like you people?? Who exactly are you guys?

Presumably your post was a reply to me, as you quoted me. Was that a reply to me the ATP, or to me the mechanic/inspector?

I've failed to remember a small pocket knife before, lost a miniature spyderco that isn't made any more, and can't be had. My fault. But then for years, I've always carried at least five blades. I carried them for years, on and off the airplane, in the cockpit; a leatherman, a swiss army knife, and a tactical folder for one-handed use. I frequently asked when security might get around to preventing three-inch-or-less blades.

Guess what? Everybody laughed. What could someone do with a little knife like that, they asked. Well, well. I, for one, could do an increadible amount of damage with that one blade. It happens that I'm not so inclined. The same with a ballpoint .35 caliber pen...put you and I across a table, or in a room, and there isn't much difference between what I could do to you with a pen, as a handgun...and there's little you could do to prevent it. Trust me.

Is a pen a potential weapon? Yes. But then so is a credit card, or almost anything else that a person might train to use. I'm sorry I lost my little spyderco, but it was my fault. I forgot it; it was tucked beneath my belt in my waistband, and all but disappeared. It wasn't until I was almost to the detctor, giving myself a final patdown, that I remembered it found it. I don't have heartburn with security for doing what security did. I held it by one end as I moved forward, I didn't have time to send it away.

In all fairness, security offered to try to salvage it for me, but no joy.

I've lost a few little items. Is there value in screening people and material that pass through the forward screening areas upon entering the terminal and SIDA? Yes. That is the public view end of security. Security at air fields takes many forms, that's just one. It's far from the be-all end-all of security measures. But you know that.

Am I sick to death of hearing stuffed shirts whine about security? Yes. It's pathetic drivel, it's really old. I fly for a living too, have for a long time, I'm subject to screening, wanding, prodding, too. I take off my shoes. I remove my belt. I don't whine.

You may recall that recently a FAA inspector was murdered, his ID taken. The same thing may easily be done to any pilot. The posessor of that ID and an easily had uniform (or siimply a white shirt and tie for the inspector) might then try to waltz on board through security. Without being screened, the entire system has then failed. Is it right that people walking through that portion of security be screened? You betcha...you walk through, you're subject too.

FAA, TSA, and others are circulating on the ramp, watching. In maintenance, watching. Roving patrols are conducted. Cameras are mounted. Each area of any given airfield has it's own secure measures. That you need to take off your shoes is not a big deal. It's not. That you whine about it, is.

Do you know how many times in the last couple of years I've been fingerprinted? Several, and do you know how many times I've whined about it? None. But then, perhaps my uniform merely lacks the stuffing necessary to bring about that sour reaction, as yet. Time shall tell.

 

[Tripower455]

You guys? Is that anything like you people?? Who exactly are you guys?

Presumably your post was a reply to me, as you quoted me. Was that a reply to me the ATP, or to me the mechanic/inspector?

You mentioned in your post that you were a mech, so that's the you guys I was referring to. I don't know what you do for a living, but it seems from your other posts that you are well versed in many facets of aviation. I am quite surprised to see that your views on this subject are as ignorant as they are.

I've failed to remember a small pocket knife before, lost a miniature spyderco that isn't made any more, and can't be had. My fault. But then for years, I've always carried at least five blades. I carried them for years, on and off the airplane, in the cockpit; a leatherman, a swiss army knife, and a tactical folder for one-handed use. I frequently asked when security might get around to preventing three-inch-or-less blades.

Guess what? Everybody laughed. What could someone do with a little knife like that, they asked. Well, well. I, for one, could do an increadible amount of damage with that one blade. It happens that I'm not so inclined. The same with a ballpoint .35 caliber pen...put you and I across a table, or in a room, and there isn't much difference between what I could do to you with a pen, as a handgun...and there's little you could do to prevent it. Trust me.

Is a pen a potential weapon? Yes. But then so is a credit card, or almost anything else that a person might train to use. I'm sorry I lost my little spyderco, but it was my fault. I forgot it; it was tucked beneath my belt in my waistband, and all but disappeared. It wasn't until I was almost to the detctor, giving myself a final patdown, that I remembered it found it. I don't have heartburn with security for doing what security did. I held it by one end as I moved forward, I didn't have time to send it away.

In all fairness, security offered to try to salvage it for me, but no joy.

This is all accurate etc. but it still fails to recognize the issue. The issue is that I can walk through the "security" checkpoint naked, and still fly the airplane into a building, so depriving me of "weapons" accomplishes nothing. A newly hired baggage handler, who would need a weapon to take over an aircraft, is not screened prior to entering the "secure" area. See the irony? I am not arguing whether a pen knife is a weapon or not. I am arguing (whining?) that there is little need to screen pilots for weapons when virtually no other employees are.

I've lost a few little items. Is there value in screening people and material that pass through the forward screening areas upon entering the terminal and SIDA? Yes. That is the public view end of security. Security at air fields takes many forms, that's just one. It's far from the be-all end-all of security measures. But you know that.

The last sentence is the understatement of the decade.........

Am I sick to death of hearing stuffed shirts whine about security? Yes. It's pathetic drivel, it's really old. I fly for a living too, have for a long time, I'm subject to screening, wanding, prodding, too. I take off my shoes. I remove my belt. I don't whine.

You haven't given the subject the critical analyisis required to reach a logical conclusion on it. What you consider "drivel" is voicing lucid concern about this situation. I make my living flying passenger jets. I am directly responsible for the lives of my pax as well as $1.5 billion worth of liability every time I go to work. The (lack of) "security" that I and my pax are provided with borders on criminal.

You may recall that recently a FAA inspector was murdered, his ID taken. The same thing may easily be done to any pilot. The posessor of that ID and an easily had uniform (or siimply a white shirt and tie for the inspector) might then try to waltz on board through security. Without being screened, the entire system has then failed. Is it right that people walking through that portion of security be screened? You betcha...you walk through, you're subject too.

What about the majority of employees that AREN'T screened? Is it conceivable that a terrorist can steal a ramper's ID, bribe a ramper or simply get a job as a provisioner, bag loader, airport cleaner etc etc etc. Then, after watching a 45 minute video (which half of the guys in my last SIDA class couldn't understand, because it was in english and they didn't speak it), he can enter the "secure" area with whatever he wants to. Which charade do you think would be easier for a terrorist to pull off, impersonating a pilot or an aircraft cleaner?

Not to mention that anyone with photoshop, MS Word and a glock can be an armed LEO.

The entire system has already failed when all you do is provide some eyewash at the front door and leave the back door unlocked, cameras and roving patrols notwithstanding. This was proven LONG before 9/11, by David Burke.

The answer is biometric ID tied to a constantly updated database for all airport workers, including pilots. Real time threat data for the onboard security coordinator (captain) would be nice too, instead of being treated as part of the problem and keeping us in the dark. There is no reason whatsoever why we don't have it right now. It is criminal that after spending billions of dollars on tighter "security", that we are still using the same old ID. More irony is that C.A.S.S. is going to rely on a US passport, easily one of the most forged documents in the world, to allow jumpseat access. It's surreal. Joseph Heller couldn't have imagined a more ridiculous situation in Catch 22.

FAA, TSA, and others are circulating on the ramp, watching. In maintenance, watching. Roving patrols are conducted. Cameras are mounted. Each area of any given airfield has it's own secure measures. That you need to take off your shoes is not a big deal. It's not. That you whine about it, is.

And still, entry level employees are not subject to any type of daily screening. It does not take too much imagination to figure out many ways to exploit this gaping hole, despite cameras, roving patrols and feeling up pilots.

Does it make sense to you that the ONLY employees that are screened for weapons are the ONLY employees that wouldn't need to smuggle in a weapon to take over an airplane (this includes FAs, since they have access to the cockpit hence a weapon in flight)? Think about it.

This is what "the big deal" is about.

IMHO, the only employees who should be exempt from passenger screening are pilots and maybe flight attendants. Everyone else should be screened for weapons.

Do you know how many times in the last couple of years I've been fingerprinted? Several, and do you know how many times I've whined about it? None. But then, perhaps my uniform merely lacks the stuffing necessary to bring about that sour reaction, as yet. Time shall tell.

Well, I've never "whined" about being fingerprinted any of the 5 or 6 times I've had it done, since that actually makes sense. Allowing new hire employees unfettered access to the "secure" area does not.