Jail for walking on the ramp??!!

[ilvsleep]

I had a question after I returned from a cross-country which included a stop in Yakima, WA. We stopped at the local FBO and got a ride to the terminal so we could get something to eat. It turned out the crew car was the fuel truck so when we were done with lunch he (believe his name was Norman, nice guy!) was refueling a Horizon dash-8 which was going to take like a half hour. We decided to walk back to our airplane (PA28RT201) all the way at the other end of the field. We had an instructor with us but his recollection of the rules may have been rusty. We stayed on the ramp area which went around the non-movement area near the terminal, and did not cross any solid or dashed lines. About three-quarters of the way there four airport firefighters came out and stopped us, kicked us out of the airport after recording our information, and called airport security who was waiting for us when we finally navigated our way back to the FBO through a construction area and a couple of sidestreets. We no longer had the airport in sight!!! I understand why the firefighters reacted like that (post 9/11) but I don't agree with their decision. I believe pilots and passengers having business on the ramp are allowed to be there no matter what part of the ramp you are on. I looked in the AIM and the FAR's when I got home and could not find anything that pertained to walking on the ramp. I can understand at a more congested airport why walking on the ramp could be a potential problem but there were no airplanes taxiing or landing while we walked. Anyway airport security threatened to have the police come pick us up and they didn't even see what happened. It took about a half hour of back and forth "conversation" for them to calm down. At my home airport which has about five times the traffic as YKM we walk on the ramp to get coffee at the FBO all the time. Can somebody enlighten me please?

 

[JetBlast2000]

A tough one… I’ve been to lots of a/p’s both large and small. I’ve yet to see any consistent rules. The large a/p tend to be very strict. The regs you’re looking for are CFR49 Vol. 8 subpart XII part 1500-1699. Unless you’re a lawyer I’m not sure you’ll find what your after.

Good luck…

 

[ilvsleep]

thanks for the tip....I read through all the parts that I thought might pertain to what happened and I found 1507.105 . So that at least helps but it is still kinda fuzzy because we weren't in a SIDA or an AOA(I don't think but I guess their whole airport could be an AOA but there were no signs at the gate we came back in at denoting the fact, or anything metioning the use of identification badges). Thanks for your help and I think I'll wait for the ride next time....

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

Welcome to the Fourth Reich...

...and don't forget, if someone at the TSA gets a hair up their you-know-what as a result of an incident like this, they can COMMAND the FAA to pull all of your certificates and you have no legal recourse. Something to bear in mind when you're deciding who to vote for in a few weeks....

 

[DaveJ]

Only for non-citizens

Actually, I believe that TSA has suspended their revocation rule for citizens, but it is still in effect for non-citizen certificate holders.

 

[ilvsleep]

thanks Lord, and Dave! I think I'll stick with not trying to provoke anybody (by accident or otherwise) its not worth possibly getting arrested or revoked! Either way I don't recommend YKM to anybody right now anyway because of Mt. St. Helens. It went off the first time while we were in the air, got some great video of it!

 

[pilotman2105]

This story seems a little fuzzy to me. Why did the firefighters stop you exactly? What "information" did they take? Was the fact that you were pilots and transacting business on the airport not enough of a reason for them? This honestly sounds like one of two things: 1-Airport firefighters on a power trip with nothing to do, or more likely, 2-A ground of pilots/buddies walking all over the airport possibly causing other needless commotion.

Regardless, when I'm on or near an airport, I always make sure to specifically have on me my certificates and a photo ID. It doesn't matter if I'm flying or not. By having those things on me, my identity and reason for being there can be more surely substantiated. My passengers are also always instructed to bring a photo ID. No ID, no flight. Not because I don't know my passengers, but because I don't want the hassle of running into some over-zellous cop/security "officer"/firefighter/FBO secretary/TSA mouse-kateer/line boy who thinks it's their civic duty to play Inspector Gadget.

Finally, I also don't "take the long way around" (especially "inside the fence") anytime that I need to walk anywhere. I get to where I'm going in the most direct fashion. Yeah, it may not be the most enjoyable walk, but it's a sign of the times.

 

[ilvsleep]

This story seems a little fuzzy to me. Why did the firefighters stop you exactly? What "information" did they take? Was the fact that you were pilots and transacting business on the airport not enough of a reason for them? This honestly sounds like one of two things: 1-Airport firefighters on a power trip with nothing to do, or more likely, 2-A ground of pilots/buddies walking all over the airport possibly causing other needless commotion.

It may have been a little of #1 (in my biased eyes) and a little #2 in their eyes. But the route we decided on was actually the shortest distance although it was inside the fence. I think we probably should've (and will next time if there is one) just leave the airport and walk the streets back. We did have all ID necessary including CFI licence. All passengers were pilots.

Finally, I also don't "take the long way around" (especially "inside the fence") anytime that I need to walk anywhere. I get to where I'm going in the most direct fashion. Yeah, it may not be the most enjoyable walk, but it's a sign of the times.

We definitely didn't take the long way if anything it was the most direct route and I think that turned out to be the "disagreement". Anyway I'm glad nothing happened we just made sure to act extra nice and do everthing they asked so as not to provoke them more than we apparently had already.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

There are several issues here that may or may not be in play. First, were you transeting an area used by an airline or the military (or are there any areas on the airport that are used by those two groups). Second, would you have been able to taxi an aircraft without clearance in that area?

I am thinking they overreacted. Definitely have yourself and your pilot buddies document the incident (write down their recolections and save them someplace safe) in case something happens.

 

[FN FAL]

...and don't forget, if someone at the TSA gets a hair up their you-know-what as a result of an incident like this, they can COMMAND the FAA to pull all of your certificates and you have no legal recourse. Something to bear in mind when you're deciding who to vote for in a few weeks....

You did know that a person doesn't have to wait untill Kerry is in office in order to have a legal partnership agreement drawn up between homosexual life partners?

 

[Vector4fun]

You'd be better off not walking on any ramp except the FBO where you're parked or have business at any airport with scheduled airline service. Airport security is very strict nowadays. Before anyone goes thinking the airport employees are ruthless security "Nazis" or anything, be aware the airport can and will be fined by the FAA/TSA for allowing security breeches. I work in the Tower and have more security clearances than most anyone working on the ramp, but I'm not allowed on the ramps or anywhere else except an FBO where I have business. I'd never be allowed on an airline ramp without escort. I have to have permission from airport police to park my airplane near the tower, and it's 600 yards from the terminal building.....Get used to it....

 

[Tripower455]

You'd be better off not walking on any ramp except the FBO where you're parked or have business at any airport with scheduled airline service. Airport security is very strict nowadays. Before anyone goes thinking the airport employees are ruthless security "Nazis" or anything, be aware the airport can and will be fined by the FAA/TSA for allowing security breeches. I work in the Tower and have more security clearances than most anyone working on the ramp, but I'm not allowed on the ramps or anywhere else except an FBO where I have business. I'd never be allowed on an airline ramp without escort. I have to have permission from airport police to park my airplane near the tower, and it's 600 yards from the terminal building.....Get used to it....

Or get a job as a provisioner, aircraft cleaner or any other job on the airport except pilot (and ATC it seems) and you can have carte blanche access to wherever you want to go, sans the hassle of passenger screening! You will even be authorized to escort the non trusted employees (pilots, ATC guys terrorists etc) in the "secure" area.

FWIW, I will never "get used to it", since it makes no sense whatsover........ It is all ineffective eyewash. Would another airplane used as a WMD be what it takes to actually do something about security?

I am glad that I am not involved in GA anymore. Geez, you can't even walk to/from your airplane/FBO at a small airport without getting arrested nowadays?

 

[troy]

The firefighters were just doing their job. It is everyone's job to query anyone without a visible badge. We're to do in on the ramp here in FSD. A couple of reasons:
1. Security (obvious)
2. TSA--if I were to walk past a TSA undercover agent without asking him for his badge, I would be the one in trouble.

I don't know why they didn't let you continue on your way, It was probably the "wrong" way or not expected. Just focus on the fact that you got away with your cert's the same day. They are just "trying" to keep us safe.

 

[pilotman2105]

TSA--if I were to walk past a TSA undercover agent without asking him for his badge, I would be the one in trouble.

Are you serious? The TSA does these "undercover inspections" to make sure that people/employees are checking?

 

[avbug]

Are you kidding? TSA and FAA both...FAA has been doing it for years. Teams spend the year going from airport to airport attempting to walk into hangars, across ramps, and break security. Those who fail to challenge them are frequently fined, and often lose their SIDA or other badges and clearances. You're surprised by this?

I never walk around a ramp unless I've checked with the FBO first, to determine if it's acceptable. Never the less, sometimes I'm still stopped and asked for identification. If it's a large airport or one that obviously has a security program in effect, I don't bother at all. I just don't go walking around the ramp.

From the description of this evoloution one might guess that the FBO employe/fuel truck driver was never consulted regarding the walk back to the FBO. No mention has been made of enquiring with the FBO at any time regarding ramp access or walking across the airport.

If a secure area such as the SIDA lies between you and your destination, a good policy is don't walk there. Not through it, not skirting around where you think it begins and ends (it may not be the red line you're walking around, incidentally). Call up the tower if you can't find anybody else to ask; query. I've gone so far as to call the tower before, and to receive a light gun signal clearing me to cross movement areas and runways on my way to a cafe (Jeffco, CO).

Never assume it's okay to walk about.

As for Tripower's bitterness...it's not just pilots that are subject to security. I've been there enough times when turning wrenches, too. I'm sick to death of hearing stuffed shirts whine about taking off their shoes. Get used to it. Right or wrong, the world is not ending. Take a valium or two, call in sick. Getting high and mighty over a shoe or a wand isn't worth it. Enough, already.