Is it really worth it?

[Talian]

After reading all the posts to the "You know your a regional F.O. when" thread, I have to admit that I wonder why this industry is worth it.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not putting all of you down who are in the regionals, I myself have been considering trying to get on with a regional at 40 years old after being away from aviation for a couple of years.

I guess it's hard to understand why so many people are willing to give up quality of life just to fly. I really love flying but am unsure if I could sell myself and my dignity to these bottom feeder companies.

What do you guys think could be done to make this industry self respecting like it was many years ago. You have to admit it's pretty pathetic that people would do this important job for about the same wages as McDonalds employees.

Don't you think that if people refused to work for these companies something might change in quality of life and decent compensation. The jokes about the lack of pay are really eye opening for someone considering this profession.

I have alot of friends that are regional, major and corporate pilots and maybe 50% of them say that it is worth it.

I would like to know what others thoughts are on this, especially those flying for regionals and if it is really that sad or is alot of the posts on here just people whining.

 

[SpyFlysDOTs]

Depends on a lot of issues.

First, your attitude
Second, the airline
Third, your attitude!

 

[BOHICAgain]

at the age of 40 if you are going to be doing this job as your only source of income just to get back into flying. No its not worth it.

The reason that people will always go to "bottom feeders" is that their is no other way to get to a major besides going to the military. Most people choose the airline by the city they live in or by whoever calls first.

Its the best Job I can think of once the door closes till it opens again. With your time you can go to an airline that has a relatively short upgrade time and make 60K and if you live in base your QOL will be huge. Yeah 1st year sucks but this job beats a 9 to 5 job where you bring home work with you.

 

[Leroy Smith]

Depends on a lot of issues.

First, your attitude
Second, the airline

Third, your expectations!

Is it really worth it?
Yes and No.

 

[SpyFlysDOTs]

Third, your expectations!

Is it really worth it?
Yes and No.

Yes agree.
Depends on just how happy you were at your previous job. I switched just after 40, and was making a boatload of money at my previous job.
Money isn't everything.
There is something to be said for doing what you WANT to do, not have to do.

 

[Minimaniac]

Many of us stay with this job, despite the drawbacks, because aviation is a passion for us. We like to fly. Some wise guy said "Find a job doing what you love, and you will never work a day in your life." 90% of us took our jobs because we enjoy flying. The 10% who got into this for the money have for the most part left the industry. As long as we can pay the bills, we will continue to fly under these conditions. Now, if the cost of living continues to rise (housing, inability to sell a house, heating and gas, etc.), you are likely to see more people leave because it becomes impossible to pay the bills.
This job will always have a few distinct advantages over regular jobs. For one, we tend to have more days off a month compared to your normal cubicle prisoner. Second, we rarely ever take work home with us. When you leave the airplane at the end of trip, you are done til next week. That separation of work from life is invaluable. Also, this job offers more variety in the day to day than most any other job. Between new crews, different cities, and ever changing weather, the job offers stimulation. A nine to five job would send most of us to a mental institution.
PIlots enjoy the new challenges, the new people, and the ego-stroking that comes with the job. Even one kid admiring you in the terminal outweighs 500 ignorant passengers who criticize you for flying through unavoidable turbulence. This is a feel good profession. It makes you learn, it lets you show off, and it puts food on the table. All around, not bad.

 

[wings421]

It is certainly worth it! I only hope that I have the chance to keep doing it as long as I please (read: don't medical out). The job has its downsides, but overall, there ain't nothing better... (for me)

 

[Cardinal]

Flying is fun, obviously. But even the regional lifestyle is a heck of alot of fun, if you use the right rubric. Jacked up overnights with your small, intimate crew in horrible little towns, doing your best to make the most of it/stay out of prison, after always surprising days, each hour filled with new hilarious stories of how your airline found a way to screw itself harder, or how your FO found a way to screw the FA harder...drink yourself to sleep, repeat.

If you're in your 20s and single, it's like college with airplanes. If your older with a family, maybe not.

 

[Frap]

After reading all the posts to the "You know your a regional F.O. when" thread, I have to admit that I wonder why this industry is worth it.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not putting all of you down who are in the regionals, I myself have been considering trying to get on with a regional at 40 years old after being away from aviation for a couple of years.

I guess it's hard to understand why so many people are willing to give up quality of life just to fly. I really love flying but am unsure if I could sell myself and my dignity to these bottom feeder companies. One answer to this is the lack of education that student, private and instructor pilots have regarding how things really are at regional airlines, not to mention some of the time building freight dog outfits. I've long said that ALPA should make their presence known at flight schools and tell the wannabes how things really are at these levels. Of course, those flight schools might never let them on their properties for fear of losing starry eyed revenue.

What do you guys think could be done to make this industry self respecting like it was many years ago. You have to admit it's pretty pathetic that people would do this important job for about the same wages as McDonalds employees. Education. And guts. The profession was self respecting years ago because people had balls back then. That attitude seems to be sorely lacking these days, and not just in aviation. Pathetic indeed.

Don't you think that if people refused to work for these companies something might change in quality of life and decent compensation. The jokes about the lack of pay are really eye opening for someone considering this profession. Of course. But it'll never happen. Just like pro sports, there is a plethora of guys in the minor leagues taking aim on those few precious spots in the majors. Regional (minor league) managements know that the childhood dream is still strong in most and they take full advantage of that. And by the time one does get a shot at the majors, holidays, birthdays and countless firsts have come and gone and will come and go.

I have alot of friends that are regional, major and corporate pilots and maybe 50% of them say that it is worth it. You know what? With all the doom and gloom you read on this forum, there really are some great, easy, they pay me to do this? type of days in this profession. Those days do make you forget, temporarily, all the other crap that you endured on your previous four day trip. But the head scratchin' goings on at a regional airline (or even an exalted major) tend to rear their ugly heads more than they should.

I would like to know what others thoughts are on this, especially those flying for regionals and if it is really that sad or is alot of the posts on here just people whining.

Perhaps I am whining a bit and a cliche on one's attitude is certainly appropriate here. But even though we pilots LOVE to bitch about things, there are lots of valid reasons for that bitching. It really is that sad in the airline industry and I'm looking for a way out.

Of course, after I'm gone for a while, I'll miss it like crazy and wonder if leaving was the right thing to do. See how nuts that is? It's the highest of highs and the rock bottom of lows, this flying gig.

 

[tomgoodman]

The alternative?

... this job beats a 9 to 5 job ...

http://www.glumbert.com/media/baddayoffice

 

[Leroy Smith]

Yes agree.
Depends on just how happy you were at your previous job. I switched just after 40, and was making a boatload of money at my previous job.
Money isn't everything.
There is something to be said for doing what you WANT to do, not have to do.

Me too. In my late 30's, came from an outstanding company, making great money. But I had the bug to fly.

This is a great job, but a horrible career. They pay me too much to fly, but cant pay me enough for all the rest of the BS that comes with it.

 

[time builder]

90% of us took our jobs because we enjoy flying. The 10% who got into this for the money have for the most part left the industry. As long as we can pay the bills, we will continue to fly under these conditions. Now, if the cost of living continues to rise (housing, inability to sell a house, heating and gas, etc.), you are likely to see more people leave because it becomes impossible to pay the bills.

Heck, where I went to school, the graduating class was 10 percent of the size of the yearly attendance of private pilot ground school. Seriously 120 newbies to 12 graduates, and you only needed your instrument rating to graduate (and this was back when you could get it all done in under $25K).

Then..... "10 percent" might drop out because they can't pay the bills as a pilot while the other "90 percent" stick it out. Not to mention the folks who wash out of training or otherwise screw up their career and don't get back on the horse.

For me, 5 years after getting my commercial certificate, I still haven't made as much as I put into it. Was it worth it? It's starting to get that way, but you really have to believe that it's going to pay off in the end.

One of the biggest things that is often overlooked, in my opinion, is the point that no matter how long it took you to get there, you could be on the street and back to square one in a day. Currently, I'd say job securtiy is good, but it's not always that way.

 

[Guitar Guy]

I was in my early thirties when I made the decision to switch careers. I got on with a regional in 2000 but that was a different (pre-9/11) world. There have been so many changes to the airline pilot career since then that there is no longer the clear path of flying for a few years at a regional and then moving on. Right now, it's almost like a game of musical chairs and if the majors stop what hiring they are doing, one could be stuck in a low-paying regional job. While there are stories of the present pilot shortage, you'll notice that the articles reference the regionals and not the majors or the big cargo carriers.

It doesn't look too tough to get to the regional level. The bigger question is whether one will be able to advance out of the that game and on to a career position. And the corollary question is what sort of a career will it be with rising oil prices, questionable management and heaven forbid, another terrorist attack.

Talian - it's a very difficult question to answer and ultimately only you can determine if it's worth the risk to make the jump.

 

[Flying Ninja]

This job will always have a few distinct advantages over regular jobs. For one, we tend to have more days off a month compared to your normal cubicle prisoner.

While this may be true, consider the details. If you fly a 4 day trip, and you commute, that 4-day trip could possible turn into 6 (a day to commute in each direction). Let's just say that you manage to keep it at 4 days a week of work. You got 3 days to yourself. But consider a 9 to 5 will be 8 hours a day typically and you get to sleep in your own bed every night, some of these pilots can work upwards of 14+ hours a day! I hear this a lot from pilots: "hurry up and wait". Let's not forget, at the end of the day, you are STILL working for someone. While the prison changes shape daily, it's still a prison.

Second, we rarely ever take work home with us. When you leave the airplane at the end of trip, you are done til next week. That separation of work from life is invaluable.

When I leave my office everyday, my day's over. No work ever comes home with me. But...an airline pilot may have to update their Jepp plates every two weeks...yes, they could do it while on the job but do they? Separation of work...ask the commuter how much separation there is when he's scanning and planning on which flight and what airline can carry him to his domicile while he's at home with the wife and kids.

Also, this job offers more variety in the day to day than most any other job. Between new crews, different cities, and ever changing weather, the job offers stimulation. A nine to five job would send most of us to a mental institution.

A police officer gets paid more, has a guaranteed pension at the end of 20 years, and offers plenty of variety on a day to day basis. And you get to sleep in your own bed. Between new gangsters, different parts of the neighborhood, and ever changing weather, the job offers more stimulation (and physical work out). As for the mental institution, I think knowing that I'm making 80% less than what my potential is at a 9 to 5 job would make me go to a mental institution.

This is a feel good profession. It makes you learn, it lets you show off, and it puts food on the table. All around, not bad.

I would equate that "feel good" like a drug addict. It feels good while you are flying. But it feels quite like crap when you look at your pay check, and all the bullcrap that management is dishing out to you on a daily basis (scheduling calling you, forcing you to work that last leg, union disputes, the never ending and elusive contract that would make life better but never materializes, etc.). Once you get into it, it's just another job.

Frap did a good job on his comments. At age 40, I really can't see myself making $18k with a smile on my face. Not for nothing but cost of living is getting expensive, and there are other aspects of life to consider outside of aviation (house, family, etc.) that $18k just simply isn't going to get you very far.

I found myself drooling over this career. What I found out is that the light at the end of the tunnel was a freight train coming at full speed with the name CAPT spray painted over Embry-Riddle's good name. When it ran me over, I ended up with no job opportunities that were promised me, a HUGE debt that I have to dig myself out of for the next 14 years, and very limited flying because I can't afford to do it often.

It's not all smooth sailing. At age 40, I really don't think it's worth the gamble. Life's too short to frack around once you're getting up there in age. But whatever you decide, base your decision on as much information as you can gather and see the BIG PICTURE, which includes life outside of aviation and how aviation will affect it. Good luck sir.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Ninja, until you've occupied the right seat of a 121 aircraft and can speak from experience, shut yer yapper!

You are the epitome of "sour grapes."

...now go file for bankrputcy or something.

 

[Flying Ninja]

Ninja, until you've occupied the right seat of a 121 aircraft and can speak from experience, shut yer yapper!

You are the epitome of "sour grapes."

...now go file for bankrputcy or something.

Ooops, did I pinch a nerve with what I said? Prove me wrong with what I have said in my previous post. I don't have to sit right seat to experience what I read and hear from all these regional pilots as to what life is all about as a regional pilot.

I would file for bankruptcy if that even helps my situation. But you can thank Georgey Bush for changing the law so that it would be absolutely meaningless for an individual to file. Corporations...now that's a different story. But individuals...you're SOL. Thanks for the tip. Next time you open your mouth to offer suggestions, base it on some sound facts. Good day.

 

[hindsight2020]

I think people tend to minimize the economic hardships the regional route presents to suit what they want to hear. In reality, it depends on what stage of life and what the economics of your present condition are when you get in. If you're in your early 20s, with (lack of) financial commitments which allow you to *maybe* slum it at Mcdonalds wages for the time you spend on the right seat, then perhaps. When you have responsibilities other than stocking the cabinet with ramen noodles then the proposition is outright scary.

Also if you're of the latter kind, you'll most likely have to build up some cash savings from your previous career to supplement your income for the time it takes you to hit the CA uprade at these regionals. Considering that alone, even at 1st year pay for 12 months, it sets you back many years. The majors are not the sure ticket to a career either, so once you make the jump you are still concerned about that crapshoot, and you sure as hell ain't going to be single and 21 by the time you work for these majors, you'll have much more at stake for sure. I've got co-workers at the unit (military) who tell me the horror stories of trying to commute to these joints working for $1600/mo gross. At least for the guard types, by the time he was through taking mil leave days to pay the bills, the min guarantee had gone down so low it cost him money to go to work. I know this is a specific personal circumstance, but my hat's off to the pure civi types trying to put food on the table on regional FO pay, the sacrifice in terms of pay vs days at home is horrendous. I know if the military hadn't been an option for me I would have been effectively priced out of the flying profession altogether.

Regarding the 9-5 comparison, the thought of working an engineering job made me sick to my stomach, but in hindsight the constant stress of living paycheck to paycheck, or credit, well into one's 30s is just as bad on your QOL, and I'm sure I could find a 9-5 job where I don't have to take work home with me (the supposed comparative advantage of airline jobs), and basically guarantee myself 40K/yr with a 4 year degree in basket weaving and not have to starve. Clonking out due to vocational frustration vs due to financial stress presents no difference in my book. I respect those who've stayed true to themselves and changed careers to suit their passion in life while dismissing a pay cut as a righteous opportunity cost to pursuing your dream, but I submit that this is all good and great until said paycut takes your family from a modest (or any kind of) lifestyle to not even meeting the cost of living threshold in the cheaper parts of this country (regional FO pay for example). Dismissing that is disingenous.

So as others have mentioned, your mileage varies. It works for some and not others. If I was intent of making an airline career via the regionals I would say one should be in their early 20s and live in base. Outside of that, forget it, it's not worth it. I'm sure the older career changers will disagree with that but I'm also sure they had enough cash stashed from the previous job to at least convince the wife it was worthwhile to go back to said income level.

Good luck brother!

 

[jvrac]

"If you fly a 4 day trip, and you commute, that 4-day trip could possible turn into 6 (a day to commute in each direction). Let's just say that you manage to keep it at 4 days a week of work. You got 3 days to yourself. But consider a 9 to 5 will be 8 hours a day typically and you get to sleep in your own bed every night, some of these pilots can work upwards of 14+ hours a day!"

Not all commutes take a full day. I used to do a two leg commute and it took 6-8 hours. A one leg commute can be quicker. It depends on how far you commute. I'm not saying commuting is a breeze, but it's not as bad as you're making it out to be. If you live in base, you can still sleep in your own bed every night, and work between 8-12 hours a day, oh, and have about 14-18 days off per month. It depends on how productive your trips are and whether or not you're senior enough to get those trips.

"I hear this a lot from pilots: "hurry up and wait". Let's not forget, at the end of the day, you are STILL working for someone. While the prison changes shape daily, it's still a prison."

It's not a prison if you enjoy being there.


"When I leave my office everyday, my day's over. No work ever comes home with me. But...an airline pilot may have to update their Jepp plates every two weeks...yes, they could do it while on the job but do they?"

Yes, actually a lot of pilots update their Jepps and other manuals on the job. You can even study for recurrent, etc. while on the job. You have access to all the manuals right there on the plane.

"Separation of work...ask the commuter how much separation there is when he's scanning and planning on which flight and what airline can carry him to his domicile while he's at home with the wife and kids."

This process takes between 10-15 minutes. ...maybe 20 or 30 if you really have to look hard.

"A police officer gets paid more, has a guaranteed pension at the end of 20 years, and offers plenty of variety on a day to day basis. And you get to sleep in your own bed. Between new gangsters, different parts of the neighborhood, and ever changing weather, the job offers more stimulation (and physical work out). As for the mental institution, I think knowing that I'm making 80% less than what my potential is at a 9 to 5 job would make me go to a mental institution."

I prefer not to get shot at while getting "stimulated".

In any case, it depends on your individual situation, lifestyle preferences, etc.

 

[Frap]

You're assuming the trips are commutable--often, they're not. With an 0500 report and a 2200 release in domicile, that 4 day trip (or reserve period) just turned into a 6 day.

And the man is thinking about starting his new career now. He ain't gonna hold 14-18 days off and even if he lives in domicile, he ain't gonna sleep in his own bed every night.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Ninja, until you've occupied the right seat of a 121 aircraft and can speak from experience, shut yer yapper!

You are the epitome of "sour grapes."

...now go file for bankrputcy or something.

If you know his story, he has a right to be pissed. Lay off the guy.