Is it loggable?

[Eric]

I had the opportunity to ride right seat in a Citation Jet today under part 91. I have a comm. multi. instrument.

Can I log any of the time? I did get to hand fly it a bit. The capt. is typed as a single pilot. Was I a SIC?

I know that I was just a passenger providing nothing but traffic watch and a second set of ears. I know that this little bit of time won't make a difference in the end and logging it would look funny in an interview, but I'm curious.

You tell me-PIC, SIC, Total Time, a good time?

Eric

 

[midlifeflyer]

A good time.

Not PIC:
If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for. 61.51(e)(3)

"Rated" means the category, class, and type, if a type rating is necessary for the aircraft that is listed on the back of your pilot certificate.

No Type Rating, no PIC.

Not SIC:
You may only log SIC when the airplane or the operation requires more than one crewmember. Since the aircraft was wearing its "single pilot" hat, you were passenger, not crew.

Of course, if the Captain is a CFI and was willing to endorse your logbook as a training flight, you could log it in the training received and total flight columns.

 

[pilotyip]

questions?

The airplane may have required two pilots. That is unknown. Was it a single pilot CE-500? If it was a two man cockpit you can legally log SIC from block to block with your current rating, however no PIC as per above. However were you properly trained as a SIC? did you meet the requirements of 61.55 b? if not, you are in violation if you log the SIC time. If the airplane required two pilots and you sat in that seat asa passenger and did not log the time, then the PIC would be in violation. Alot of unanswered questions.

 

[501261]

Good time, plain and simple.

Unless you completed the requirements of 61.55b, which it does not look like you have, you can’t log SIC.

Just learn from the experience, and maybe have the PIC give you some ground school 61.55b1, and the flight training required by 61.55b2 you’ll be good to go as an SIC.

FYI the PIC does not need a CFI for this since you’d be an SIC under 61.55f.

 

[Eric]

Alright, on the way back I got some more stick time and a landing. It is a CE-565 (I think). It was daytime with no passengers. Would it count towards 61.55 and if so is it just total time or SIC.

If the captain is single pilot typed, does that mean that the flight couldn't have been operated as a two pilot crew?

Regardless, it was good

 

[midlifeflyer]

If the captain is single pilot typed, does that mean that the flight couldn't have been operated as a two pilot crew?

You can fly a CE-152 as a 2-pilot crew also. "Can" isn't the issue. "Required" is.

 

[501261]

Well, there is no such thing as a C565.

Sounds like it might be a C560, a.k.a. Citation V, Ultra, or Encore depending on serial number.

Either way you really need to know more about the airplane to log it.

The good news is that the C560 is definitely a 2 pilot airplane, no if ands or buts about it. The C560 is only certified for 2 pilots. There is no single pilot type rating (unlike the CJ which has a C525S type), and the Flight Manual requires two pilots. So study the books get some legs and complete the requirements of 61.55.

One of the biggest “interview” gotchas is logging time in an airplane and not knowing anything about it. In my opinion if you log time in something you need to be able to know something about it (and C565 just won’t fly).

FYI, it is possible to fly the C560’s Single Pilot, with the FAA waiver 4050L, a.k.a. the Single Pilot Waiver. The waiver is very different from the C501 or C551 or C525 which are certified for One Pilot OR Two pilots.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

501261 is correct. The 550 and 560 are two pilot aircraft. I hold a single pilot waiver for the Bravo, but to the FAA it is a two pilot aircraft. No where will you find anything about single pilot in the manuals or specs on the airplane.

You will probably be ok logging it as SIC, You hold a Comm, multi and that is all that is required for 91 SIC. It will not raise many eyebrows at an interview since it is a two pilot bird. However the one hour will raise eyebrows, since 61.55 1 and 2 states that you do need the basics in the aircraft including performance, emergencies, three T/O's and landing yada yada yada........ Bottom line is if you are going to fly with this person regularly you will have to cover 61.55 which you can do with him and not have to go to formal training.

Or do it the easy way and use 61.55 d,4 and log it as SIC safety pilot!!! Then all the other stuff does not apply.

You gotta love the regs, Loop holes galore!

One hour logged as SIC would attract unwanted attention from an airline interview 15 or 20 would not.

Of course that is just my take on the regs, and I by no means am an expert. I'm just happy when I keep myself out of trouble!!!!!! Heck, just keeping up with what I can fly single pilot and two pilot over 7 different versions of the Citation 500's can give you a headache.

 

[Eric]

Thanks for the input guys. My mistake, it wasn't the little known, top secret CE565, it was the 525.

Whatever the case may be, it was a kick in the pants to fly something so quiet and fast compared to the not so top secret and better known 150.
Do you remember your firsts?

First kiss....
First time in the flight levels
First time to set your altimeter to 29.92

Well, I got two outta three today.

Thanks again for the FAR explanation!

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

In the case of the 525 CJ, it is certified as single pilot. So unless you were acting as safety pilot you are out of luck on the SIC time. Try to get him to sign you off as dual received.

Strangely enough I do remember the first kiss. I cannot remember the first for the other two though!! Although technically they are one in the same if you set 2992 at 180 then you are also in the flight levels. I know everybody hates a smart A%$!

 

[xdashdriver]

Look in the AFM under Limitations and see what it isays for Minimum Flight Crew. If it says One or Two pilots then all you need is the 61.55 requirements and you're good to log it SIC.

We have a Citation II that was built as a 550, then the current owner changed the paperwork to a 551 (single pilot bird) and the AFM says one or two pilots. I don't know about the CJs, they may not have the option for two pilots. Look in the AFM, that'll answer your question.

Ray

 

[bobbysamd]

Logging the time

It sounds like it was GREAT fun, but, unless the airplane required a two-pilot crew pursuant to its operating certificate and/or regs and you were properly trained and qualified as an SIC pursuant to the regs, you are SOL for logging time in it.

There was other value in your experience, though. Apart from the ride, you undoubtedly learned something and perhaps you made a contact in the form of this pilot which could lead to bigger and better things.

Good luck with your efforts.

 

[Flyforfood]

Greetings everyone,

I was about to post a similar question about logging time in a Citation525 on a part 91 flight. I was told by the pilot, who is typed and single pilot 135 w/ autopilot blah blah blah.....that since he had his ATP and above a certain amount of time in the aircraft, that he could legally give dual in the airplane. He is not a CFI. I did put the time in my logbook. But I am not including it in my totals. Is there a provision allowing an ATP to give dual in an aircraft? I looked in part 91 and could not find anything. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

61.55 of the FAR's has the info you are looking for. There is a reference to ATP's in that section but cant remember the details.

 

[xdashdriver]

Greetings everyone,

I was about to post a similar question about logging time in a Citation525 on a part 91 flight. I was told by the pilot, who is typed and single pilot 135 w/ autopilot blah blah blah.....that since he had his ATP and above a certain amount of time in the aircraft, that he could legally give dual in the airplane. He is not a CFI. I did put the time in my logbook. But I am not including it in my totals. Is there a provision allowing an ATP to give dual in an aircraft? I looked in part 91 and could not find anything. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

There is provision in the FARs for ATP certificate holders to conduct instruction. The relevant FAR is 61.167(b):

(a)A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as those afforded a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.

(b) An airline transport pilot may instruct --

(1) Other pilots in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;

(2) In flight simulators, and flight training devices representing the aircraft referenced in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, when instructing under the provisions of this section and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;

(3) Only as provided in this section, unless the airline transport pilot also holds a flight instructor certificate, in which case the holder may exercise the instructor privileges of Subpart H of Part 61 for which he or she is rated; and

(4) In an aircraft, only if the aircraft has functioning dual controls, when instructing under the provisions of this section.


Note the phrase I have marked in bold. The FAA would probably raise their eyebrows unless you were undergoing his 135 training program to be an SIC as you would then be undergoing instruction in air transportation service. Getting him to sign your logook just so you can log the time would most likely not be valid.

Just my $0.02

Ray

 

[avbug]

Ray is correct, and pilots have lost their certificates for claiming instruction given, and received, by an ATP not holding a flight instructor certificate, when that instruction is not received in air transport service.

The ATP grants no authority to provide any instruction outside the air transport service.

An ATP employed by a Part 121 or 135 certificate holder may provide instruction for the certificate holder, relevant to the certificated operations of that holder...but not outside those operations.

See the attached legal interpretation regarding that matter, as follows:

MAY 15, 1979

AWE-7
Request for Interpretation FAR 61.169, WE-ACDO-33 ltr. dtd. 10/12/78
Associate Regional Counsel
Chief, Flight Standards Division, AWE-200

This is in response to your letter of October 26, 1978, requesting our interpretation of Section 61.169 of the Federal Aviation Regulations.
Our answers to each of the questions posed on your letter are as follows:

Question No. 1
May an ATP rated airman of a certificated FAR 121 Air Carrier give flight instruction under contract to individuals who are enrolled in an FAR Part 141 School?

Answer No. 1
No. While Section 61.169 does authorize the holder of a ATP to give instruction without holding a flight instructor certificate, this authorization is clearly limited in scope. One of these limitations is directed to the class of individuals receiving the instruction. Specifically, the section provides that the authorization only extends to instruction given to other pilots in Air Transportation Service. Individuals who are enrolled in an FAR Part 141 School would not fall within that class.

Question No. 2
Would the answer to Question No. 1 be different, if the information in Example No. 1 were Sierra Academy, an FAR Part 141/121 School?

Answer No. 2
No. The same reasoning discussed above would in our opinion also apply to the situation posed in this question.

Question No. 3
If the answer to question No. 1 or No. 2 is yes, must the ATP rated airman meet the requirements of FAR Sections 1.1.411 and 1.1.413?

Answer No. 3
Since our answers to the first two questions were in the negative, no answer to this question is required.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us.

DEWITTE T. LAWSON, JR.
Regional Counsel
By:_______________________________
FREDERICK C. WOODRUFF
Associate Regional Counsel