Is it loggable?

[xdashdriver]

Look in the AFM under Limitations and see what it isays for Minimum Flight Crew. If it says One or Two pilots then all you need is the 61.55 requirements and you're good to log it SIC.

We have a Citation II that was built as a 550, then the current owner changed the paperwork to a 551 (single pilot bird) and the AFM says one or two pilots. I don't know about the CJs, they may not have the option for two pilots. Look in the AFM, that'll answer your question.

Ray

 

[bobbysamd]

Logging the time

It sounds like it was GREAT fun, but, unless the airplane required a two-pilot crew pursuant to its operating certificate and/or regs and you were properly trained and qualified as an SIC pursuant to the regs, you are SOL for logging time in it.

There was other value in your experience, though. Apart from the ride, you undoubtedly learned something and perhaps you made a contact in the form of this pilot which could lead to bigger and better things.

Good luck with your efforts.

 

[Flyforfood]

Greetings everyone,

I was about to post a similar question about logging time in a Citation525 on a part 91 flight. I was told by the pilot, who is typed and single pilot 135 w/ autopilot blah blah blah.....that since he had his ATP and above a certain amount of time in the aircraft, that he could legally give dual in the airplane. He is not a CFI. I did put the time in my logbook. But I am not including it in my totals. Is there a provision allowing an ATP to give dual in an aircraft? I looked in part 91 and could not find anything. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

61.55 of the FAR's has the info you are looking for. There is a reference to ATP's in that section but cant remember the details.

 

[xdashdriver]

Greetings everyone,

I was about to post a similar question about logging time in a Citation525 on a part 91 flight. I was told by the pilot, who is typed and single pilot 135 w/ autopilot blah blah blah.....that since he had his ATP and above a certain amount of time in the aircraft, that he could legally give dual in the airplane. He is not a CFI. I did put the time in my logbook. But I am not including it in my totals. Is there a provision allowing an ATP to give dual in an aircraft? I looked in part 91 and could not find anything. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

There is provision in the FARs for ATP certificate holders to conduct instruction. The relevant FAR is 61.167(b):

(a)A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as those afforded a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.

(b) An airline transport pilot may instruct --

(1) Other pilots in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;

(2) In flight simulators, and flight training devices representing the aircraft referenced in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, when instructing under the provisions of this section and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;

(3) Only as provided in this section, unless the airline transport pilot also holds a flight instructor certificate, in which case the holder may exercise the instructor privileges of Subpart H of Part 61 for which he or she is rated; and

(4) In an aircraft, only if the aircraft has functioning dual controls, when instructing under the provisions of this section.


Note the phrase I have marked in bold. The FAA would probably raise their eyebrows unless you were undergoing his 135 training program to be an SIC as you would then be undergoing instruction in air transportation service. Getting him to sign your logook just so you can log the time would most likely not be valid.

Just my $0.02

Ray

 

[avbug]

Ray is correct, and pilots have lost their certificates for claiming instruction given, and received, by an ATP not holding a flight instructor certificate, when that instruction is not received in air transport service.

The ATP grants no authority to provide any instruction outside the air transport service.

An ATP employed by a Part 121 or 135 certificate holder may provide instruction for the certificate holder, relevant to the certificated operations of that holder...but not outside those operations.

See the attached legal interpretation regarding that matter, as follows:

MAY 15, 1979

AWE-7
Request for Interpretation FAR 61.169, WE-ACDO-33 ltr. dtd. 10/12/78
Associate Regional Counsel
Chief, Flight Standards Division, AWE-200

This is in response to your letter of October 26, 1978, requesting our interpretation of Section 61.169 of the Federal Aviation Regulations.
Our answers to each of the questions posed on your letter are as follows:

Question No. 1
May an ATP rated airman of a certificated FAR 121 Air Carrier give flight instruction under contract to individuals who are enrolled in an FAR Part 141 School?

Answer No. 1
No. While Section 61.169 does authorize the holder of a ATP to give instruction without holding a flight instructor certificate, this authorization is clearly limited in scope. One of these limitations is directed to the class of individuals receiving the instruction. Specifically, the section provides that the authorization only extends to instruction given to other pilots in Air Transportation Service. Individuals who are enrolled in an FAR Part 141 School would not fall within that class.

Question No. 2
Would the answer to Question No. 1 be different, if the information in Example No. 1 were Sierra Academy, an FAR Part 141/121 School?

Answer No. 2
No. The same reasoning discussed above would in our opinion also apply to the situation posed in this question.

Question No. 3
If the answer to question No. 1 or No. 2 is yes, must the ATP rated airman meet the requirements of FAR Sections 1.1.411 and 1.1.413?

Answer No. 3
Since our answers to the first two questions were in the negative, no answer to this question is required.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us.

DEWITTE T. LAWSON, JR.
Regional Counsel
By:_______________________________
FREDERICK C. WOODRUFF
Associate Regional Counsel