Is a student a passenger or a crew member?

[UndauntedFlyer]

What do you think? If a CFI is current with 3 Takeoffs and Landings in the last 90 days in AMEL but not similarly current in ASEL, can that CFI give flight instruction in a single engine land airplane?

While the CFI clearly can not carry a passenger without being current, does the fact that the "passenger" here is a "crew member" make it legal? I would think so but does anyone have any information on this with maybe a reference?

 

[svcta]

If the student were already at least a Private Pilot and current, then yes. However, my interpretation of 61.89 leads me to believe the following:

A student pilot cannot act as PIC of an airplane that is carrying a passenger. As we've established, no pilot can act as PIC of any airplane unless he's current in class, category, and type. So, effectively you would be a passenger if not legal to act as PIC(since only one crewmember is required).

The problem being created here(as I see it) is that there is no one who can legally act as the PIC. So go get current and then you've got no problem, no interpreting, no gray area.

Now, in just a few seconds someone will prove me wrong. 3..............2................1............

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

As we've established, no pilot can act as PIC of any airplane unless he's current in class, category, and type.

The problem being created here(as I see it) is that there is no one who can legally act as the PIC. So go get current and then you've got no problem, no interpreting, no gray area.

Now, in just a few seconds someone will prove me wrong. 3..............2................1............

Svcta: With all due respect your above statements are simply not correct.

Certainly a pilot may act at PIC and log PIC and not be current in an airplane, such as flying an airplane solo when he or she is not takeoff and landing current. The only requirement is that no person may act as PIC of an aircraft carrying passengers unless that person has made at least 3 takeoffs and landings within the preceding 90 days as the sole manipulator of the flight controls.

The the question still stands: Can a non-current CFI give flight instruction in a C-172 to a student pilot? The thought being that the student pilot is not a passenger but a crewmember!

 

[SSDD]

This is one of those grey areas. While a student pilot is not a passenger, neither is he a required crewmember. If this is a primary student, ie doens't yet hold a private certificate, I would think that the CFI must be current.

 

[pilotyip]

No

The student is a passenger unless a second crewmember is required to perform duties in the cockpit. You establish currency without a second pilot, therefore you would have to establish currency before instructiing. In a DC-3 you could take a student with you while you establised landing currency

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The student is a passenger unless a second crewmember is required to perform duties in the cockpit. You establish currency without a second pilot, therefore you would have to establish currency before instructiing. In a DC-3 you could take a student with you while you establised landing currency

Pilotyip: You sound very confident, do you have a reference of any kind for this answer? If you look up the Part 1/61 definition of a crewmemer it seems to fully fit a student pilot, presolo or not.

 

[bizjet800]

It depends, if he or she is working for a commuter, then yes they must supplement their income by flight instructing!

 

[MauleSkinner]

If the student is a crewmember, he would have to be a required crewmember. If the CFI is in the airplane with him, he can't be a passenger, so he would be a required crewmember as well, per the operating regulations (Parts 61 & 91).

Among other things, 61.89 says:

(b) A student pilot may not act as a required pilot flight crewmember on any aircraft for which more than one pilot is required by the type certificate of the aircraft or regulations under which the flight is conducted, except when receiving flight training from an authorized instructor on board an airship, and no person other than a required flight crewmember is carried on the aircraft.

It would be similar to saying that if everybody on board is a pilot, we can make them all crewmembers so we can do loops without parachutes.

Fly safe!

David

 

[svcta]

Svcta: With all due respect your above statements are simply not correct.

Certainly a pilot may act at PIC and log PIC and not be current in an airplane, such as flying an airplane solo when he or she is not takeoff and landing current. The only requirement is that no person may act as PIC of an aircraft carrying passengers unless that person has made at least 3 takeoffs and landings within the preceding 90 days as the sole manipulator of the flight controls.

I think you failed to read the part where I claimed that as a non-current pilot and therefore unable to act as the PIC, you would in effect be a passenger. Therefore the fact is that the student would then be carrying a passenger in an airplane. The situation that you suggest leaves no one as legally capable of acting as the PIC because you are both each other's passenger; One non-rated passenger and one non-current passenger.

Regardless, why not just go and get current? Poof---problem solved.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

If the student is a crewmember, he would have to be a required crewmember. If the CFI is in the airplane with him, he can't be a passenger, so he would be a required crewmember as well, per the operating regulations (Parts 61 & 91).

Among other things, 61.89 says:

(b) A student pilot may not act as a required pilot flight crewmember on any aircraft for which more than one pilot is required by the type certificate of the aircraft or regulations under which the flight is conducted, except when receiving flight training from an authorized instructor on board an airship, and no person other than a required flight crewmember is carried on the aircraft.

It would be similar to saying that if everybody on board is a pilot, we can make them all crewmembers so we can do loops without parachutes.

Fly safe!

David

So your answer is they were legal or not? What is it?