Iraqis could learn from Colombians

[Vladimir Lenin]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030408/wl_nm/colombia_usa_dc_1


U.S. Pilot Killed on Anti-Drug Mission in Colombia

BOGOTA, Colombia (Reuters) - An American pilot on Monday became the fifth U.S. government contractor killed in Colombia in two months when his single-engine plane crashed while spraying drug crops in the south of the country.

A U.S. Embassy official said it was not clear if the T-65 aircraft was shot down by Marxist rebels or crashed accidentally.

"The pilot was an American citizen, and he's dead. We don't know the cause (of the crash)," he said.

Colombian police identified the victim as Larry Cantrell, but the embassy declined to comment on his identity, pending notification of his family.

The plane lost radar contact in midafternoon in Narino province, a fast-growing battleground in the U.S.-backed war on drugs.

The United States, which has pumped about $2 billion into Colombia's fight against cocaine and leftist rebels, has seen three American-manned planes crash in the Andean nation since February.

The string of disasters began on Feb. 13, when a U.S. government Cessna slammed into the mountains of southern Colombia while searching for coca leaf, the raw ingredient in cocaine.

Marxist rebels swarmed the plane and killed a U.S. contractor and a Colombian army sergeant. They snatched three Americans from the wreckage and declared them "prisoners of war."

Less than two weeks ago, another Cessna crashed into a mountain -- killing three Americans hired to search for the U.S. hostages.

Colombia is the third-largest recipient of U.S. aid, after Israel and Egypt. But Washington, worried about becoming bogged down in the South American nation's four-decades old civil war, has limited the resources and capped the number of U.S. military personnel in the country.

Critics say Washington is contracting out dangerous missions to U.S. civilian firms due to the restrictions.

 

[Swass]

What are you getting at, anyway?

 

[TurboS7]

What he is saying is that FARC would give the U.S. military a real run for the money-which I agree.

 

[TurboS7]

What he is saying is that FARC would give him a run for his money-and I agree.

 

[Snakum]

Colombia ... ahhh ... what a waste of good farmland. Having spent a VERY short amount of time there in 1989 let me tell you ... Vietnam would be a pleasant memory compared to the nightmare that full US involvement in Colombia would become.

The leaders of the three main groups grasping for control - the gov't, FARC, and the drug-lords - are all in bed together and everybody is double-crossing everybody all the time. It's a MESS! Money and force is the only law of the land, even in the cities. FARC shoots at gov't troops and the drug-lord troops, then co-ops on missions against the gov't with the smuggler armies, and the gov't troops do the same. One day the commanders in the field are shooting at FARC, the next day they are exchanging intel on the smuggler's private armies and smoozing.

Nasty stuff ...

Minh

 

[Snakum]

Oh ... forgot to say ... there have been American SF trainers there since at least 1985, mostly from the 7th Group (Panama). Also at various times Detachment Delta out of Bragg have been involved in the effort to pop 'El Cadroni'. If memory serves they were there when he was finally capped.

Fun, fun, fun.

Minh

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

Well, without getting into who's who in Colombia, I just wanted to point out that that we (U.S.) seem to be loosing more planes in Colombia during "peace" than in a "war" in Iraq

 

[TurboS7]

There is anything but "Peace" in Colombia, where I used to live ia a "no-man zone" with FARC on one side and AUC and the military on the other. Real mess.

 

[Snakum]

Ah .... the AUC. Who's paying their salary these days? The Colombian gov't/CIA or the smugglers? I never could figure it out.

Turbo - Were you in the area in 1989, before 'the big initiative' that Fall?

Minh

 

[TurboS7]

I lived there from 1965 until 1982 when my brother-in-law was killed by the M-19. By request of the State department our whole family had to leave the country. I have been back to visit since but have not lived there since 1982

 

[Timebuilder]

Sounds llike several of you are familiar with the players.

What do think should be done as the most effective plan?

 

[TurboS7]

First we need to do the same thing to Cuba that we have done in Iraq. Once that is done then we can declare war on the druggies, and literally blow them out of the sky and water no questions asked. Then without the drug money we could go after FARC but it would be a tough one, ELN is tough too but they are more urban and easier to handle. Without the drug money and the Castro backing they would be a force that could be eliminated.

 

[avbug]

One can't really compare the actions of heavily armed high-performance aircraft flying against targets with full support, to unarmed light very low performance aircraft flying in small groups or alone with no support. Further, the inherent risks of the operations themselves, shooting notwithstanding, are far greater for those making aerial aplication in Colombia and elsewhere.

Both military combat operations, and those engaged in aerial chemical dispensing, come under fire. However, without considering the risks of being fired upon (which are unpredictable at best), spraying in mountainous terrain in a very low performance aircraft is already high-risk. The same can be said for those engaged in unarmed intel ops in the caravans, or doing SAR work in the same. For those making vietnam comparisons, picture lone FAC or LOACH, with no support, and nobody to call in for help.

We are already fighting in Colombia.

Ag airplanes are involved in state department foreign national policy operations targeted to reduce the flow of drugs, and the backflow of drug money...ultimately to reduce the drain on law enforcement, the courts, the medical system, and the flow of funds to known terrorists. They're not in combat, and there's no comparison. They're cropdusting. That's it.

 

[Timebuilder]

What should we be doing? Aerial application from a gunship?

 

[Snakum]

Maybe we should just let the AUC loose with the latest US technology. They are among the most blood-thirsty men I have ever known (and I used to ride motorcycles with a club ) and adhear, as near as I could tell, to the 'Kill them all and let God sort it out.' method of warfare.

Imagine if we took all our looniest fringe militia groups and right-wing, racist, psychos and put them in camps, armed and trained them and then set them loose on the population with intel and funding provided alternately by the FBI/DEA and the foreign drug-smuggling gangs that are rampant in the US, depending on who need 'things done' that particular week.

Good stuff n'est ce pas?

Minh

 

[Timebuilder]

Why don't we just send Ross Perot?

"It's not about me, Larry, it's about the volunteers..."

 

[mar]

What we should do...

WHY, tell me WHY should we do ANYTHING?

Turbo, man, I respect your life experience. God knows I could never live in Colombia for almost 20 years but give me one good reason why we should make a totally unprovoked attack on Cuba???

This ain't 1961 anymore.

Further, as long as there is demand for cocaine someone will provide it.

Stop the demand, not the supply. As long as cocaine pays more than bananas people will farm cocaine.

Assume we carpet bombed all of Columbia and it's land became as fertile as the moon...do you really think that would stop the flow of cocaine into the States? Don't you think someone else would start farming the very next day?

C'mon guys. I have never lived there but let's try to see the trees in this rainforest.

I'm sick (really sickened) of this country bleeding billions of dollars into other third-rate countries that should just duke it out on their own.

You take care of your own house first, then, if the weather's nice, go help the neighbor.

[deep breath]

 

[Timebuilder]

Further, as long as there is demand for cocaine someone will provide it.

If very few people are able to provide it, the demand cannot be satisfied on a widespread level, and it would become so expensive to purchase that few could afford even a gram.

Stop the demand, not the supply.

Great. When we come up with some sort of a vaccine, that's a good idea.

Don't you think someone else would start farming the very next day?

You have to have the plants, the land, and the climate. Not everyone can do this, and few would risk the repercussions of starting such an enterprise.

You take care of your own house first, then, if the weather's nice, go help the neighbor.

Our neighbor's sewage is polluting our population, so we should help our neighbor clean up the problem while we help ourselves.

A win-win situation.

There are a couple of different aspects to this problem. One is that drugs fund terrorism, and another is the impact on public health, and a third aspect is the flow of money out of the country.

We can no longer afford to view this as a private, "victimless" crime.

 

[Beechnut]

You guys are talking to a scab.

S.

 

[TurboS7]

The bullet that went through the heart of my brother-in-law came from the gun of a Nicaraguan that was trained in terrorist camps on the island of Cuba. These camps still exist. Contrary to what the media puts out Cuba is very much a part of the drug traffic equation, both in the past and now. As long as Cuba stands at the present political situation the Central and South American countries will always be at a state of unrest. Marxism is Marxism.(man we need a spell check on this board)