International Operations

[Silver Wings]

We have just completed an extended tour into Middle East, Africa and Europe. We used a well known third party flight planning service. There were many small errors made ( no overflight permissions, no handling on arrival, mistakes in time zones, hotels booked being well let's say bad..... you know the score).

What I was interested in was to know the best choice for flight plannng services, best experiences (and worst experiences).

Jeppeson, Universal, Air Routing etc.

 

[semperfido]

i would be interested to know which one you used? we recently had some errors as well- very annoying.

 

[Silver Wings]

i would be interested to know which one you used? we recently had some errors as well- very annoying.

Sent you a PM with a bit more info. What sort of errors did you get ?

 

[semperfido]

it sometimes seems the flight planners don't use common sense when putting together a flight plan. another was no handler there to meet the plane. transportation screw ups. not using crew cell phones to contact crew directly. they were mostly attention to detail issues. that is all i can think of at the moment.

 

[Capt1124]

I used Universal once. The problem with the "teams" is every time you call you get a different team memeber, who has no idea what you're talking about and has to look everything up all over again.

Jeppesen created one big mess up for me. I was going to Nevis, but Nevis has no 10-9. I called Jeppesen to see what they could get me, and they told me all they had was text info. (I also did a web search.) The text info looked complete but it turns out you can't land at Nevis at night without a local checkout, so we had to go to St. Kitts. I was realy steamed, but fortunately the boss didn't mind too much. The whole point of using a trip planning service is they are supposed to get you the local knowledge. Then there was the thing about the airport closure in Cabo- but that was the Mexicans' fault.

I think some problems are inevitable due to the nature of flying international, and nobody is going to do everythig right all the time. but there are a variety of choices for trip planning services and if one company isn't doing the job, another can.

 

[con-pilot]

I have just completed a true around the world flight, over 30,000 miles, 70.4 hours of flight time. The trip lasted for two months, three days and 7+30 hours (not that I was counting!), obviously we were not trying to set a least time record.

Universal handled us for the entire trip. They did all of the flight planning, filing of flight plans (even in India), over flight permits, ground handling, transportation for crew and the passengers, etc., etc.

There were only two mistakes made by Universal. First was they made reservations at the wrong Marriott in London, which I caught before we arrived in London and had the reservations changed. The second was they dropped the ball for crew transportation on our second arrival into London. TAG aviation at Farnborough quickly arranged a car for us.

Therefore in my opinion Universal did an outstanding job for us. I have used Jeppsen with the last outfit I flew for and it usually was the same handler that Universal had on contract.

Now with that being said I need to point out that any chief-pilot or aircraft commander cannot just call a handler and just turn the entire trip over to them. You have to find out all that is required for the flight, have your handler arrange for all that is required and double check them!

In my experience the handler will do anything you want them to except for anything illegal that they could be liable for at a later date. If you want to take a Lear 25 from KSFO to PHNL the handler will send you a flight plan stating that the aircraft does not have capability for that segment. However, if one is a hot sh1t pilot that thinks his skill and cunning can over come such minor details as having less fuel than that is required (or who is a world class swimmer that can swim a couple of hundred miles towing a Lear jet) they cannot stop you.

In summation any service will do a good job for you, however, it is still up the PIC to double check to insure that all details have been arranged.

 

[Lead Sled]

Now with that being said I need to point out that any chief-pilot or aircraft commander cannot just call a handler and just turn the entire trip over to them. You have to find out all that is required for the flight, have your handler arrange for all that is required and double check them!

In my experience the handler will do anything you want them to except for anything illegal that they could be liable for at a later date. If you want to take a Lear 25 from KSFO to PHNL the handler will send you a flight plan stating that the aircraft does not have capability for that segment. However, if one is a hot sh1t pilot that thinks his skill and cunning can over come such minor details as having less fuel than that is required (or who is a world class swimmer that can swim a couple of hundred miles towing a Lear jet) they cannot stop you.

In summation any service will do a good job for you, however, it is still up the PIC to double check to insure that all details have been arranged.

That's been my experience as well. If you merely call them up and tell them where and when, then you can expect some screwups. 80% of the effort expended to fly internationally should be spent in preflight planning and organizing. The remaining 20% (the easy part) is the actual flying the trip. You need to get or develop a comprehensive international planning checklist and follow it. Then, when all is said and done, you need to stand back and see if it all makes sense. It's amazing how many times you'll catch developing "issues" at that point.

Handlers are great and, in most cases, well worth the expense. However if the extent of your involvement centers around waiting for Universal's flight planning fax to be slid under your hotel room door then you're setting yourself up.

One other thing that I've found helpful is attending NBAA's International Operators Conventions. There's a lot of useful information there for the taking.

'Sled

 

[PMVULB AvMgr]

My suggestion is that besides using the likes of Uvair, Air Routing and the others, you hire yourself a well seasoned dispatcher with at least 10 years of international experience.

This individual can do alot of work that you are paying top dollars to the handling outfits for, and can save you his/her salary very easily by bringing much of the work in-house. The handling companies can charge you $150 to set up handling anywhere in the world - guess what, all you have to do is send a fax (or email) to the handler, and you can set this up yourself. 7 or 8 stops on your international trip, immediate savings of over $1000 realized just for this task alone.

A well seasoned dispatcher will spot errors immediately, and will usually know how to get things done internationally better than the planners you are paying big bucks for. And to this in-house expert the only thing that matters is getting your plane from point A to point B and onwards. No-one else!!

In the NY area an idividual of this caliber will cost a pretty penny, in the area of $80k to as high as $160k PLUS benefits/bonus etc, but is well worth it.

 

[Silver Wings]

Thanks

Thanks, Some good ideas and experienced statements.

We certainly don't wait for the handlers fax to be slid under the bedroom door. As you say, that's just asking for it !

The sorts of issues we had were missing overflight permissions, and errors on local time information, as well as hotel screw ups. The usual I suppose and all catchable prior to flight. In previous trips we've arrived at airports with a confirmed handling notified to us only to find the company went bust years before. That hurst in the midnight hours at the end of the planet when sorting a new handler takes the rest of the night and the warm cozy hotel bed seems farther and farther away. sa,me for crew visa's, and sitting waiting 8 hours to NOT GET them after having confirmation that it would take no more than 2 hours. Live and learn I suppose.

 

[kilroy]

I've had universal drop the ball a number of times. The last time it amounted to a 5000$$ customs fine. They've forgot our over flights on several occasions. Had me fly around Cuba twice instead of over flight.

 

[AZ Typed]

Do you international folks have some recommended web sites with some guidance? (I understand not to use the web site as a primary means of info). I'm looking for a place to start. I've not been international in years (only to CAN at that) and I know the phone will ring with some whacky Mexican destination soon. Thanks.

AZT

 

[mike1mc]

If you merely call them up and tell them where and when, then you can expect some screwups. 80% of the effort expended to fly internationally should be spent in preflight planning and organizing. The remaining 20% (the easy part) is the actual flying the trip.

Nothing is closer to the truth. I've had a few problems with both Universal and Air Routing and I can say that 90% of the problems were because the captain did not follow up or ask ANY questions. These companies don't always look at the big picture and details can slip through. Know what you need before you make your intial call and be sure that everyone is on the same page and knows his/hers responsibilities for the trip.

Here's a few links I use:

Visa Information
[font=Arial, Arial Black, Arial Narrow, Arial Unicode MS]International Flight Information Manual[/font]
[font=Arial, Arial Black, Arial Narrow, Arial Unicode MS]International METARs[/font]
[font=Arial, Arial Black, Arial Narrow, Arial Unicode MS]International TAFs[/font]
[font=Arial, Arial Black, Arial Narrow, Arial Unicode MS]International NOTAMs[/font]
[font=Arial, Arial Black, Arial Narrow, Arial Unicode MS]RVSM NOTAMs[/font]
[font=Arial, Arial Black, Arial Narrow, Arial Unicode MS]North Atlantic/Pacific Oceanic Track Messages[/font]
[font=Arial, Arial Black, Arial Narrow, Arial Unicode MS]GPS NOTAMS[/font]

 

[Otter]

The RVSM and NAT pages required a password, and I did not see a way to link to a registration page, help a dumb pilot out...throw a dog a bone.....

 

[flynearful]

Hey PMVULB AvMgr hire me! I have the experience.

In a provider what would you like to see?

 

[AA717driver]

International operations SUCK!

I'm sorry I ever cursed those layovers in MLI or CID...

(Sorry for the rant, just tired of stopping in Nagoya for gas! )TC

 

[semperfido]

International operations SUCK!

I'm sorry I ever cursed those layovers in MLI or CID...

(Sorry for the rant, just tired of stopping in Nagoya for gas! )TC

TC,
rest up in hawaii and don't unpack.... get ready for some curry and mystery meat ..... oh boy more nagoya

Fido

 

[TIS]

Had me fly around Cuba twice instead of over flight.

If tat's a complaint I don't unerstand it. Why on earth WOULDN'T you go around Cuba? They have an air force and they have SAMs. They can come up and get you if there's a dispute about overflight.

I'd just as soon leave it all alone and go around.

TIS

 

[TIS]

The services we use all screw up pretty regularly - no matter how much or how little of the trip we give them. It's not like they miss on overflight permits - more like they don't start trying to get them when you ask them to so you'll have it all nailed down BEFORE you leave.

Had them fail to provide weather updates on tech stops that they were doing the planning for - inexcusable as far as I'm concerned. Had them run flight plans at the wrong mach and then refuse to reverse the charges on the improper plans. Had them fax stuff when it should have been e-mailed to save communications costs.

Just last week, all they had to do was plan me and file me from the south of France to BIKF and then to KINL. I told them I didn't want to go over London. Guess where we went? Uh huh.

Out of BIKF we had some info that was required to be in the remarks section of the plan and it took me three SATCOM calls to get that done.

It just seems like no matter how much you give them there's a certain percentage of it that falls out of bed. You really have to have a good idea of how you want the trip to run BEFORE you toss this stuff at them. That way, you'll know when they start messing it up.

TIS

 

[usairbus01]

Be sure and check the EuroControl website. You can fax your itinerary and they will fax back an estimate of costs.

http://www.eurocontrol.int/corporate/public/subsite_homepage/index.html

http://www.ecacnav.com/

International is all about PLANNING as has been stated before.

 

[AA717driver]

TC,
rest up in hawaii and don't unpack.... get ready for some curry and mystery meat ..... oh boy more nagoya

Fido

Got Shots?

(We need those just to fly with JC! )

See you next week.TC