Insurance requires 1000 turbine for F/O?

[scubabri]

Give me a break. I just heard about an insurance requirement for 1000 hours of ME Turbine for a F/O on a westwind. This can't be right.

I'm really getting fed up with this insurance crap. The company that I work for requires 500 me time for an Aztec. It seems that no matter what I do or how many hours I have it's never gonna be enough and I'm gonna be stuck flying 172's for the rest of my life.

How the heck can I move upward, when the stupid insurance companies keep raising the minimums? Is it me or is this really happening, and if it is, why? Is it 9/11? Excess pilots? Greed? High claims?

How frustrating!!

b

 

[scubabri]

woops.

Didn't mean to post this in FAR's, can someone move it?

 

[Astra Guy]

scuba,

I don't recall off of the top of my head what our mins are for F/Os. However, I am not surprised about the turbine min and yes, the underwriters are driving the train, as bad as that might be.

This is driven somewhat by supply and demand. Lots of folks out there with lots of turbine time on the streets. The underwriters know this and build that into the mix for mins. They are not stupid. The mins are based on some statistical data they have at hand.

With your posted time I am somewhat surprised that you would raise the question. I had over 10,000 hours before I learned how easy jets were to fly. Timing is everything in this business as in many other occupations.

Keep building the turbine time and something will open up for you. Don't give up hope and enjoy the air time you get, each and every time you fly, regardless of the airframe.

 

[labbats]

I think his point is the Catch-22 of it all.

How are you to build the time if you can't become eligible to begin with?

1000 hours turbine required to be second in command or 500 to fly a dumpy Aztec is ridiculous.

 

[Astra Guy]

It might seem ridiculous and maybe it is. But there are other aircraft to build turbine time in besides a jet. Jets, in my view, are considerably easier than turbo props but the insurers don't ask me for my opinion.

The PIC mins for our aircraft from our underwriters are:

PIC Time: 5,000 total, 3,000 ME, 1,000 Jet and 50 in type. Take these times and basically cut them in half for a F/O. Both have to have attended airplane specific training in the last 12 months.

Sound high? You be they are. Corporate aviation has always, from my knowledge, had higher min requirements than 135 or 121 ops. Just the way it is.

 

[Rick1128]

The pilot minimums that are quoted are from what is called the open pilot clause. The higher the minimums the lower the cost. It is possible to be placed on the insurance by name. That method allows the company two things. Putting an individual pilot on by name is much less expensive than lowering the open pilot clause minimums. And to makes it easy to say to the mulitude of applicants that 'Sorry, you do not meet our insurance minimums'.

If they really want you bad enough, they can put you on by name.

 

[scubabri]

the trick is to figure out how to make them want me that much

b

 

[Astra Guy]

I am not sure about lower premiums if one if named in the policy. We have our pilots named in the policy and others unnamed must meet the mins. We had a stipulation where one who did not quite meet the mins was allowed to fly and log PIC time as long he was flying with one of the named pilots. I doubt seriously that reduced our premiums. It was an out to allow us to use this person. Bottom line is if you don't meet the mins then the premiums will probably be higher and the only way to have coverage for the low time type is to be named in the policy.

 

[CorpAv8r]

We carry high limits of liability, so our pilot mins are high:

Beechjet/Diamond:
-PIC needs: 3,500 TT-PIC including 2500 ME, 1000 JET, 100 hrs in Type and school within the past 12 months.
-SIC needs: 2,000 TT-PIC including 1000 ME, 500 Turbine and school within the past 12 months.

King Air:
-PIC needs: 2,500 TT-PIC including 1500 ME, 500 Turbine, 50 hrs in Type and school within the past 12 months.
-SIC needs: 1,000 TT-PIC including 500 ME.


As was stated previously, these are open pilot qualifications. Our Dir. of Ops has the authority to override these minimums, however he keeps pretty close to them.

We use pilot services quite often, and I have seen the insurance allow a pilot to SIC on the Diamond with <5 hours of jet time. Granted, it was only a 1 to 2 time allowance.

One positive thing for lower time pilots is that I have noticed is that the insurance companies seem to be more interested in school rather than the total times. For example, we have more difficulty getting approval for a pilot with >5000 TT and tons of jet time but no school than we do with a pilot with <2000 TT and practically no jet time but has been to school. The insurance company wants school to show knowledge of the specific aircraft.

I know schools are expensive, but the company will probably pay for it if they are interested in you. Networking is the key.

Good Luck.

 

[Astra Guy]

Corp,

You mention the school requirement. I know what you say is true. You may already know this and if so I apologize. A few years ago FSI brought in all the underwriters and gave them their pitch on quality of their training and thereby raising the level of safety in the business aviation community. From that point forward the underwriters started requiring school training more than ever before. I can't disagree with FSI's pitch but it does seem a little odd the Warren Buffett's company owns FSI and USAIG. He has made tons of money on both endeavors.

 

[CorpAv8r]

Astra,

Very interesting. I did not know that. It makes sense though. Thanks.

I was trying to encourage the lower time guys (or ladies) that there is a loophole in the high time requirement - albeit an expensive loophole. I hate to see anybody give up on their dreams or passions because they seem unattainable.

 

[Astra Guy]

Corp,

Of course I live in my small little world but I will say that regardless of experience (within limits) we would be willing to send someone to school to help us achieve our mission. The tough part is that there are so many on the street that are qualified that it is difficult to leap in that direction.

 

[350DRIVER]

Give me a break. I just heard about an insurance requirement for 1000 hours of ME Turbine for a F/O on a westwind. This can't be right.

I agree.. When I was flying charter I was one of the "lucky" ones when I was up for the upgrade since the insurance required 2000TT & 500 multi-engine, 200 in the C421 for captain, they also wanted atleast 3000TT 500 Turbine for the King Air. I had plenty of multi-engine turbine time (pic) but I did not have the required 200 hours in the C421. After a few months of bickering back and forth with the insurance company they were able to get myself and one other captain approved but it was not an easy task. Insurance pretty much dicates everything when it comes to who can occupy that seat. I can say that if you have your director of operations or someone else negotiate with the insurance company then they will probably budge some. That is one good aspect of the 121 world is insurance means very little in comparison to the 91/135 departments. The 135/91 flying is not too friendly to the lower time pilots, much more difficult present day if you are not a relatively higher time guy with substantial experience in make and model.


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[Geigo]

Scubabri,

I can relate. I was trying to get on as SIC on a CJ and they inclued a 500 jet PIC requirement!

Kind of makes you want to get that turbine powered Mitchell Wing that was at Oshkosh a couple years ago!

 

[scubabri]

thats the rub.. if I had 500 pic jet, why would I want to be a CJ F/O which only requires 1 pilot anyway. Insurance dorks.

b