Instructing with a 3rd class

[inbound]

Instruction with a 3rd class medical. Grey area in the FARs! Can anyone clear it up.

 

[EatSleepFly]

Go for it.

You can do it. Doesn't matter whether you're getting paid or not. The FAA considers your payment as payment for teaching, not flying. Somewhere I have a reference, but I can't begin to remember where, sorry. You might find it on here even if you do a search, I think it's been discussed before.

 

[CUEBOAT]

Not grey at all, you can instruct with no medical at all also. As long as you are not PIC

 

[vclean]

FAR 61.23 (a)(3)(iv) & (b)(5)

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm curious. What's your definition of "grey"? There's nothing unclear about the way the FAR is written.

BTW, Cueboat,

Not grey at all, you can instruct with no medical at all also. As long as you are not PIC

That's the way most people say it, but it's not completely accurate. You can instruct with no medical at all as long as you are not a =required crewmember=. Of course that includes PIC, but in also includes other functions. For example, a CFI with no medical can't act as safety pilot and so is limited in teaching instruments in the air.

 

[nosehair]

I'm curious. What's your definition of "grey"? There's nothing unclear about the way the FAR is written.

..eeehh, he doesn't have a "grey" area, he just heard somewhere that an instructor can instruct with a 3rd class. He hasn't looked at the regs recently. Now it is spelled out clearly in black and white in 61.23. However, this same person will be confused with the concept of "instructing while NOT acting as PIC". That goes back to the days when you did not log PIC when there was an instructor on board. The instructor was ALWAYS the PIC. He is probably still living in that time. The times, they are a'changin'.

 

[HangerRat]

Why would you not log PIC when there was instructor on board? The instructor is the PIC. . .but you can still log PIC also, if you are rated in the aircraft.

..eeehh, he doesn't have a "grey" area, he just heard somewhere that an instructor can instruct with a 3rd class. He hasn't looked at the regs recently. Now it is spelled out clearly in black and white in 61.23. However, this same person will be confused with the concept of "instructing while NOT acting as PIC". That goes back to the days when you did not log PIC when there was an instructor on board. The instructor was ALWAYS the PIC. He is probably still living in that time. The times, they are a'changin'.

 

[nosehair]

Why would you not log PIC when there was instructor on board? The instructor is the PIC. . .but you can still log PIC also, if you are rated in the aircraft.

Rat, re-read my post - I said "that goes back to the old days when you did not log PIC when there was an instructor on board"...back to the old days, not today.
This person asking the question about instructing with a 3rd class PROBABLY goes back to those old days....sheesh!

 

[Lear Lackey]

How about instructing based on the ATP (yes the scenario is in the proper context of instruction for an air carrier 135/121 in the airplane)? The ATP does not have any current CFI certs. Does he need a 3rd or since it is a privelage of the ATP does he need to hold a 1st class?

 

[nosehair]

How about instructing based on the ATP (yes the scenario is in the proper context of instruction for an air carrier 135/121 in the airplane)? The ATP does not have any current CFI certs. Does he need a 3rd or since it is a privelage of the ATP does he need to hold a 1st class?

121 is not my field, but since the instructing is strictly a Captain instructing a junior officer in the operation of the 121 carrier, I would think the Captain would have to be the PIC and therefor at least a 3rd class. However, I think this is a moot point, since the carrier would certainly require him to have at least a second class, if not a first.

You aren't going to have private instruction in the operation of 121.

 

[midlifeflyer]

How about instructing based on the ATP (yes the scenario is in the proper context of instruction for an air carrier 135/121 in the airplane)? The ATP does not have any current CFI certs. Does he need a 3rd or since it is a privelage of the ATP does he need to hold a 1st class?

That is a really interesting question. My immediate thought is that since the instructor in your scenario is exercising the privileges of the ATP certificate and requires a first class medical.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

121 is not my field, but since the instructing is strictly a Captain instructing a junior officer in the operation of the 121 carrier, I would think the Captain would have to be the PIC and therefor at least a 3rd class. However, I think this is a moot point, since the carrier would certainly require him to have at least a second class, if not a first.

You aren't going to have private instruction in the operation of 121.

Not always. It could be a recurrent training situation where the trainee is already captain qualified. And second class medical isn't an option because that is only good for commercial privelages.
I would say the instructor ATP is using his ATP to instruct so he needs a valid first class. But in a situation that only a commercial certificate is needed for the captain (i.e. 135 cargo) then if I remember right the company instructor also would only need a commercial but would then also need the CFI since (other than for baloons) a commercial certificate does not come with instructor priviliges. But in that case I'd say a third class is required.
Anyone feel motivated to check with the FAA on this one?

 

[soarby007]

No gray area at all. The FAA cleared this up years ago. You can instruct as long as you are not the PIC,for hire, which eliminates teaching private students. Other than that, with a couple of other exceptions previously mentioned, you can instruct with no medical. You can't be PIC, instruct for hire, with a 3rd class medical. If you teach a friend for nothing, then the 3rd class will work.

 

[EatSleepFly]

You can't be PIC, instruct for hire, with a 3rd class medical.

Yes you you most certainly can. You're being paid as a teacher, not a pilot.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You can't ... instruct for hire, with a 3rd class medical.

Of course you can. As you said, the FAA cleared this up years ago.

Let's try this from the top:

1. A flight instructor must hold at least a third class medical certificate if the flight instructor is acting as the pilot in command or is serving as a required crewmember. [FAR 61.23(a)(3)(iv)]

2. If a flight instructor is not serving as PIC or as a required flight crewmember, the CFI need not have =any= medical certificate. [FAR 61.23(b)(5)]

3. Rules 1 and 2 apply whether the CFI is being paid or not.

==================================================
With respect to the holding of medical certificates by a flight instructor, the FAA has determined that the compensation a certificated flight instructor receives for flight instruction is not compensation for piloting the aircraft, but rather is compensation for the instruction. A certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a required flight crewmember and is receiving compensation for his or her flight instruction is only exercising the privileges of a private pilot. A certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a required flight crewmember and receiving compensation for his or her flight instruction is not carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire, nor is he or she, for compensation or hire, acting as pilot in command of an aircraft. Therefore, because a certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a required flight crewmember and is receiving compensation for his or her flight instruction is exercising the privileges of a private pilot, he or she only needs to hold a third-class medical certificate. In this same regard, the FAA has determined that a certificated flight instructor on board an aircraft for the purpose of providing flight instruction, who does not act as pilot in command or function as a required flight crewmember, is not performing or exercising pilot privileges that would require him or her to possess a valid medical certificate under the FARs.

Preamble to the 1997 Part 61 revision Final Rule - Federal Register: April 4, 1997 (Volume 62, Number 65), Page 16220-16269 at Page 16242:
==============================

 

[EatSleepFly]

Thanks Midlife, I was looking for that reference.

 

[avbug]

An ATP instructing other pilots in air transport service requires a first class medical certificate, as he or she is exercising the privileges of the ATP certificate.

§ 61.167 Privileges.

(b) An airline transport pilot may instruct -
(1) Other pilots in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;
(2) In flight simulators, and flight training devices representing the aircraft referenced in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, when instructing under the provisions of this section and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;
(3) Only as provided in this section, unless the airline transport pilot also holds a flight instructor certificate, in which case the holder may exercise the instructor privileges of subpart H of part 61 for which he or she is rated; and
(4) In an aircraft, only if the aircraft has functioning dual controls, when instructing under the provisions of this section.

Instructing other pilots in air transport service is not a privilege of a commercial certificate, and therefore can only be done in accordance with 61.167. An ATP may not instruct outside air transport service...in other words, this privilege extends as far as providing company instruction to company pilots.

§ 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.

(a) Operations requiring a medical certificate. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, a person--

(1) Must hold a first-class medical certificate when exercising the privileges of an airline transport pilot certificate;

A first class medical certificate is required for operations requiring an ATP certificate. While the instruction an ATP provides doens't of it's own accord require an ATP certificate, the holder of an ATP certificate who does not posess a flight instructor certificate cannot provide any instruction without the ATP...and therefore the ATP is required for the operation in question. Accordingly, a first class medical certificate will be necessary.

 

[soarby007]

Thank you for your clarification of the issue.

 

[bertengineer]

No gray area at all. The FAA cleared this up years ago. You can instruct as long as you are not the PIC,for hire, which eliminates teaching private students. Other than that, with a couple of other exceptions previously mentioned, you can instruct with no medical. You can't be PIC, instruct for hire, with a 3rd class medical. If you teach a friend for nothing, then the 3rd class will work.

Wrong answer. You might want to re-read your FAR's concerning Flight instructor! You can instruct, for hire...with a 3rd class

 

[lawfly]

In process of Gleim online FIRC and this is covered in the course (and in the FARs as the others have noted). Yes, can instruct with no medical unless acting as PIC in which case must have at least 3rd class. Pay or no pay irrelevant. Someone commented that this rules out private students if CFI has no medical. Although not specifically mentioned in the FIRC, I would opine that if it's an instrument student (no instrument rating yet) and the flight is conducted on an IFR clearance, CFII would need medical then (and IFR currency), as well, but I invite others' input.