In Regard to DAL RFP

[shroomwell]

Non of these ideas are new, but they are all related. ALPA is the only one who can stop this insanity of moving planes from one carrier to another. There needs to be a national style pay scale. But how do you do that? People will continue to go to the CHQ's and SKW's of the world as long as there are quick upgrades, so they can move on to the next best thing. The only way to stop this is to remove the carrot at the end of the stick. If places like FEDEX, CAL, and sooner or later USAIR, UAL and DAL refused to hire people from places like this, nobody would want to work there. Eventually they become ALPA and accept a good contract and pay scale. Sooner or later all regionals including MESA will have nearly identical contracts. From there it is simply a matter of who has the better management team. ALPA needs to react to this!

Nothing against the pilots, but sometimes you have to sacrfice the minority for the greater good of the majority.

 

[atrdriver]

How about starting with the national pay scale at the regional level? It is the regionals that are being constantly whipsawed against each other, a single pay rate would go a long way toward stopping that.

 

[PA44Jockey]

Regulation....

 

[Socalplt]

Do you really think that pilot pay is the only thing driving this. What about all the other labor cost at an airline, financing cost, etc. What if everybody did have the same payscale but everybody at carrier A had an average seniority of 10 years versus 2 years at carrier B. What if carrier C has a real high turnover rate resulting in increased training cost - therefore increasing operating cost...

You're taking a much too simplistic view of the situation. Just a minor difference in interest rates in financing a $20 million dollar RJ probably amounts to $1000's every year. Sure pilot pay is a portion but not the only thing at issue here.

For any regional out there a big concern is the average seniority of the workforce. If the senior employees aren't leaving and the company isn't growing, cost are absolutely going to increase. If the company can keep growing at a sustainable pace, keep bringing on new employees (at the lower wages new employees receive), and spread management cost over more and more equipment, they can continue to compete at a lower cost and still make a good profit.

Comair hasn't been able to do this due to Delta's situation. Delta can't get competitive financing on RJs. Therefore they go other companies that can. Delta also limits their financial liability this way.

SkyWest and Chatauqua have grown considerably in the last several years. New employees mean lower cost. The average pilot at at SkyWest has probably only been here 2.5 years., Captains 4-5. We probably still have nearly 20% of our pilots on first year pay. Comair could match our rates or even undercut us by 10-20% but it wouldn't matter now, they have a much more senior workforce.

 

[shroomwell]

Socalplt, that's the whole point, over the long run things would even out. Planes would not be continually moved around to create a new junior workforce. There would not be massive time to upgrade disparities like there are now. Management's incenitive would be to find other ways to cut costs besides moving the airplanes to create a more junior workforce.

 

[atrdriver]

Do you really think that pilot pay is the only thing driving this. What about all the other labor cost at an airline, financing cost, etc. What if everybody did have the same payscale but everybody at carrier A had an average seniority of 10 years versus 2 years at carrier B. What if carrier C has a real high turnover rate resulting in increased training cost - therefore increasing operating cost...

You're taking a much too simplistic view of the situation. Just a minor difference in interest rates in financing a $20 million dollar RJ probably amounts to $1000's every year. Sure pilot pay is a portion but not the only thing at issue here.

For any regional out there a big concern is the average seniority of the workforce. If the senior employees aren't leaving and the company isn't growing, cost are absolutely going to increase. If the company can keep growing at a sustainable pace, keep bringing on new employees (at the lower wages new employees receive), and spread management cost over more and more equipment, they can continue to compete at a lower cost and still make a good profit.

Comair hasn't been able to do this due to Delta's situation. Delta can't get competitive financing on RJs. Therefore they go other companies that can. Delta also limits their financial liability this way.

SkyWest and Chatauqua have grown considerably in the last several years. New employees mean lower cost. The average pilot at at SkyWest has probably only been here 2.5 years., Captains 4-5. We probably still have nearly 20% of our pilots on first year pay. Comair could match our rates or even undercut us by 10-20% but it wouldn't matter now, they have a much more senior workforce.

That's teh whole point. If all pilot pay was the same, then management would have to figure out how to MANAGE their airlines. Instead of blaming everything on their labor costs.

 

[Socalplt]

Never happen. All it would take is to get a new certificate (Gojets) or buy a small outfit like BigSky and grow them. Frontier is doing it now with a new certificate and the Q400s. This isn't an exclusive club that others can't join. Remember this is a business, where airlines compete with each other.

What about all the other employee groups. Every $1 an hour for a mechanic, ramp, or gate agent is equal to $2 an hour for flight crew. Management will always go after labor, thats just the way it is! So what if all the pilots were paid the same but carrier A paid there mechanics a little less. What if that was the economic advantage over the others that allowed them to grow more.

You've probably got a better chance at world peace than ALPA or any other union solving this mess. And don't take that as anti-union, as I'm very much pro.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Or we could negotiate effective, inclusive, scope that stopped the bidding by binding the company to its employees.

How about all Delta flying performed by Delta pilots?

I am looking forward to the rebound in pilot hiring and air travel. Hopefully ALPA will get it right going forward.

 

[AdolphOlivrbush]

Non of these ideas are new, but they are all related. ALPA is the only one who can stop this insanity of moving planes from one carrier to another. There needs to be a national style pay scale. But how do you do that? People will continue to go to the CHQ's and SKW's of the world as long as there are quick upgrades, so they can move on to the next best thing. The only way to stop this is to remove the carrot at the end of the stick. If places like FEDEX, CAL, and sooner or later USAIR, UAL and DAL refused to hire people from places like this, nobody would want to work there. Eventually they become ALPA and accept a good contract and pay scale. Sooner or later all regionals including MESA will have nearly identical contracts. From there it is simply a matter of who has the better management team. ALPA needs to react to this!

Nothing against the pilots, but sometimes you have to sacrfice the minority for the greater good of the majority.

Holy sweet jesus, you are a complete idiot. You're right...everybody should hire the guy that stays at a substandard airline for 20 years trying to get his time to move on to a better place. To me, that shows that the guy doesn't know how to do his research before giving years of his life to a company, doesn't mind working at an inferior airline, etc. Not everybody wants to be a 10yr FO. Any what was that about CHQ and SKW contracts? Please tell me you're kidding. I guess Southwest is a bunch of skabbie whores too because they don't have ALPA. And look at their contract...obviously not as good as the other ALPA carriers. Give me a break dude. We need one union representing all the regionals...not this half-ass organization called ALPA that "represents" some of the majors, and some of the regionals. When SKYW and CHQ's contracts look like Mesa, GoJ, Compass, etc, then come talk to me. Au revoir Ricky Bobby.

 

[Bako Cap]

Do you guys really believe that pilot pay is the problem? If you do then you have drank from the largest glass of kool-aid.