Impact of ASA strike?

[Palerider957]

Question for the board:

If ASA were to go on strike within a year, how would this impact Delta?

Delta has been positioning Comair to cover much of the flying in and out of Atlanta. The official story is that Comair is covering ATL flying to permit more ASA growth in DFW. If this were really the case, couldn't Comair do most of the growing in DFW (as was promised to them years ago)? Clearly, this is a message to ASA.

I don't have the official numbers of how much feed ASA provides for DAL, and if you asked DAL (while we are in negotiations) I'm sure they would say our feed in minimal--does anyone have real numbers?

I know the Comair pilot group is a solid and supportive group, but if the current ATL flying becomes a regular part of their flying--am I correct in assuming they could NOT refuse to fly these trips as struck work?

Our MEC pretty much told DAL to shove their delay of wage increases up their a.ss. I also think the RFP is a big lie, and I don't expect ASA to acquire many of these planes at all. Having said all of that, our negotiations may reach critical mass sooner rather then later.

I welcome anyones thoughts...........

 

[sleepy]

Even with the cross hub movement by DAL, I don't think that DAL would survive a t 90 day strike by ASA. We have more power than you think.

The real question is will ALPA let ASA strike knowing that it will be the end of DAL mainline? Probably not. ALPA has too much to lose if DAL goes BK. They will not let us strike. We will be forced to take a substandard settlement to save the DAL pilots.

 

[Palerider957]

Honestly I hadn't considered ALPA interfering with an ASA work action. That is an interesting (if sinister) thought. If a strike vote is taken, and overwhelmingly approved, ALPA standing in the way would not only be extroidinarily unethical, it would make the majority of the pilot group members of the RJDC overnight.

I am NOT willing to accept a sub-standard contract this time around. There is NO reason we should not get CMR plus 1% (at least) not to mention MAJOR improvements in QOL.

I simply won't vote for anything less. Granted, I'm one of 1600 or so, but that's where I come out. I am certainly willing to strike if push comes to shove, I know many others who are willing as well.

This may mean that much more flying transferred to CHQ, Mesa, whoever else, but this stupidity has to stop......

 

[FDJ2]

The real question is will ALPA let ASA strike knowing that it will be the end of DAL mainline?

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

The approval by a majority of the MEC on an airline, with the advice of the President is mandatory before a strike vote is taken. The key word here is advice not consent or authorization. I very much doubt that ALPA National would or even could prevent you from a strike vote if a majority of your MEC approved it.

 

[surplus1]

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

The approval by a majority of the MEC on an airline, with the advice of the President is mandatory before a strike vote is taken. The key word here is advice not consent or authorization. I very much doubt that ALPA National would or even could prevent you from a strike vote if a majority of your MEC approved it.

I'm not saying that ALPA would, but if you belive that ALPA could not prevent a strike by ASA, you don't really know ALPA.

Strike votes do not equate to a strike, they only represent the alleged willingness of the pilot group to withdraw its services. ALPA has many ways to "convince" them not to act on their "vote".

ALPA has tremenduous influence with the NMB. If ALPA doesn't want a strike, you can bet they will use that influence (behind closed doors) to ensure that the required "release" never comes. ALPA controls the "money". They can deprive the ASA pilots of funding for negotiations, refuse to authorize strike benefits, extend the waiting period for benefits, decline to establish a major allocation of strike funds through the MCF, etc., etc., etc. What goes on behind the scenes is far different from what you see on the surface.

Politics is a dirty business. ALPA is a political organization.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Thanks Surplus and Sleepy for your 100% accurate posts.

Scope is the one issue I am willing to walk out over and the one issue that the Delta MEC is at odds with our pilot group on. If my strike forces the bankruptcy of Delta ( who worked in concert with the Delta MEC on making the "Portfolio of Carriers" concept a reality ) it makes a strike a triple win.

Unlike the Delta pilots who loose some of the best jobs in the World, the ASA pilots can walk - being assured that at least financially - every single one of us can get a better job. The Delta MEC and ALPA have backed us into a corner and I for one am ready to pick up my marbles and walk away.

Isn't it ironic that those of us who have been told constantly that we are not part of "Delta" are in the position of forcing Delta's bankruptcy? Just this morning I was trying to log on to Travelnet and reminded "You are not a Delta employee." So, OK then, Delta will have it their way the moment we are released for self help.

It is also ironic that this is not about money. I'm better paid than some US Air pilots. It is about being excluded from the "team" and watching jobs performed by my working group get arbitrarily shifted to other parts of the Country - its about scope and it is continued fallout of ALPA's failed scope policy.

~~~^~~~

 

[resistance]

Excellent post! I think the time has come that RJ pilots (like myself) have gotten to the point that we see the Majors like a house we could never own but wish we had. So it has boiled down to make our house as great as it can be. I remember the big joke around here was "I will only be here for a few years so who gives a f**k what happens here!" I think people realize that perhasps this job maybe the final stop on their aviation career. If it takes a stike to "shake the tree" of the CEO of their perspective carrier it comes down to how bad the pilots what to fight for a better life. If the group settles for concessions and cut backs than the group is basically saying "F**k it I will only be here for a few years!" I honor the work that the Comair pilots did for this indusrty and I wish that was the standard, however there are groups out there that THINK they will get to the Majors so they piss on their own carpet and think about themselfs.

I wish the pilots of Mesaba the best and stay strong.

 

[tbkane]

I read in this thread a lot of sentiment of it doesn't matter if Delta goes bankrupt so what I can find another job. The problem with that theory is there are 10,000+ major airline pilots as qualified and most of them can't find ANY flying jobs. (myself included) Good paying jobs in aviation are impossible to find unless you have a shuttle landing.

Don't think that Southwest and Jet Blue are waiting to take an unruley bunch of regional pilots who just put another company out of business. Airtrain got burned by some (not all) of the Comair pilots during the last strike. Company's know where you came from and who to call and not to call for an interview.

Three years ago I would agree you could go anywhere else, but those days are gone. 135 charter opps who couldn't find anyone to fly right seat in a King Air three years ago, now find themselves with 100's of typed current pilots to choose from.

Something to think about.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

You are absolutely correct about there being a shortage of job openings in this industry at the present time.

However, most of us could do as well if not better in a whole slew of other career fields. 20K-60K is not outside the realm of possibilities for a college educated highly motivated self starter. The same does not hold true for our brothers in the higher tax echelons.

As Ben Franklin once wisely noted, "We must hang together or we will hang separately."

 

[surplus1]

I read in this thread a lot of sentiment of it doesn't matter if Delta goes bankrupt so what I can find another job. The problem with that theory is there are 10,000+ major airline pilots as qualified and most of them can't find ANY flying jobs. (myself included) Good paying jobs in aviation are impossible to find unless you have a shuttle landing.

Then how come you haven't found one? I thought all Delta pilots were astronaut qualified. [Calm down, I'm just pulling your chain].

Seriously, there's a lot of truth to what you say. Also, I don't think that ASA pilots (or anyone else that flies for a living) actually want Delta (or any other airline) to go bankrupt. The times are difficult, negotiations always bring forth emotions and the rhetoric is tempered by both.

However, there are jobs in the market for qualified and educated people, even if those jobs are not in aviation. Unless you're a senior citizen, you wont starve.

On the other side of the coin is the attitude that the situation is hopeless for the ASA group new "portfolio" armor and the current status of the industry in general. That too is a misconception.

I'm not an ASA pilot, I'm a Comair pilot. I believe that Delta's highly touted armor (against a "regional" work stoppage is weak and its defenses against a labor action by either of its subsidiaries are not as strong as they were before the Comair dispute. There is an illusion of great strength but, in my opinion, that's just what it is, an illusion.

Yes, Comair now has a presence in Atlanta (insignificant) and more flying has been allocated to the subcontractors. Yes, Delta will continue to fly (there won't be any more support for ASA pilots (from the DAL pilots) than there was for Comair pilots) and the ATL hub won't close, but neither will DAL come off unscathed.

There are thousands of qualified pilots available, as you stated, but they don't happen to be "qualified" in the CL-65. An effort by Delta to train them will take time, lots of time, assuming that enough of them are willing to cross an ASA picket line (an unlikely prospect). Even if the Company decides to hire "replacement workers" it will take a major effort by Delta to keep 20% of ASA in the air [20% being the number generally considered necessary to break a strike]. The Company will suffer severe economic impact, at a time when its financial resources are no where near what they were during the Comair strike. Delta can't afford to blow another $700 millions of the shareholders money on a management ego trip (what they did at Comair) right now.

Provided the ASA pilots are not making unreasonable demands, it behooves Delta to settle. A decision by management to accept bankruptcy due to a dispute with ASA is unlikely. What is far more likely, in my opinion, is that DAL management might use an ASA strike as a bankruptcy threat tool against the Delta pilots, not the ASA pilots. It is the Delta PWA, that threatens Delta's solvency, not a work stoppage at ASA.

If anyone knows that better than me, it is ALPA National. What ALPA will do (to ASA pilots) in an effort to protect the interests of Delta pilots is left to be seen. One can only speculate. However, as a Comair pilot, I know what ALPA did to protect the interests of Delta pilots in our little scenario and it was NOT favorable to the Comair cause. The threat to Delta pilots is far greater now than it was back then.

If and when the ASA pilots make the decision to withdraw their services, they would be well advised to recognize that they will have the support of ALPA International in name only. ALPA will do whatever it deems necessary to protect the interests of the Delta pilots (and coincidentally of ALPA). If that includes sacrificing the interests of ASA pilots, rest assured it will happen.

As long as the ASA pilots realize that they will, in effect, be standing alone, they can do what needs to be done.

Something (more) to think about.

JMO

 

[tbkane]

Let me be the first to tell you 50k with a non flying job vs 40k with a flying job, 10 times out of ten I would take the flying job. After four years at a regional and 3 months at a major I find myself working as an accountant for the past two years.

I do make more than when I flew true, but EVERYDAY I wish I was still flying. Happiness, quality of life, and travel benefits, just a few things that I enjoyed at the airline vs the office grind.

I know there are those that say yeah it is nice to be home during the holidays, and nice to be home everynight etc. Don't fool yourself I would rather work Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years, and Easter, than have to work 7-5:30 everday (as that is what salary positions seem to require) with the occasional weekend. Also, it is nice to be home everynight, but it is also nice to be gone every once in a while especially when that is what your used to. Gone are the days of having 12-15 days off a month, with a whole lot of less stress.

I am not writing this to have anyone feel sorry for me, but to enlighten those that think a strike and brining your company down is the answer. It is if you never want to fly again!

 

[sleepy]

I read in this thread a lot of sentiment of it doesn't matter if Delta goes bankrupt so what I can find another job. The problem with that theory is there are 10,000+ major airline pilots as qualified and most of them can't find ANY flying jobs. (myself included) Good paying jobs in aviation are impossible to find unless you have a shuttle landing.

Don't think that Southwest and Jet Blue are waiting to take an unruley bunch of regional pilots who just put another company out of business. Airtrain got burned by some (not all) of the Comair pilots during the last strike. Company's know where you came from and who to call and not to call for an interview.

Three years ago I would agree you could go anywhere else, but those days are gone. 135 charter opps who couldn't find anyone to fly right seat in a King Air three years ago, now find themselves with 100's of typed current pilots to choose from.

Something to think about.

I think what the poster was saying is that there are a lot of better paying jobs outside of aviation. In my third year at ASA as an RJ FO I made just $42,000 last year. I am qualified and experienced in a profession that I could make more than double that amount at any time. There are plenty of people at ASA who could do the same. I fly because I love doing it, but if I have to walk away from this job to stop the slide downward of our profession, then so be it.

I can't be concerned about the DAL mainline employees or their jobs. It's everybody from themselves in this business, we learned that from the mainline pilots.

 

[sleepy]

Re: Bad thread

There is no use for this question to be ask right now. It may undermine our negotiations, which I don't think is fair to those working on our behalf.

I don't mean any disrespect to our CNC. I appreciate the difficult job that they are doing for us. I fail to see, however, how a thread on a message board can possibly affect their work.

What has been said about ALPA supporting an ASA strike is true. This kind of thing happens at all labour unions in every industry. Anyone that believes that ALPA will allow ASA to strike, if said strike will send DAL to BK, does not understand how this union really works. Management understands this, and that undermines our CNC.

Maybe our three MEC's will work it all out at the (not so) secret meeting today in ATL.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

What exactly are you trying to say tbkane?

As a furloughed mainline guy is it not in your and in fact everyone elses best interest at DALPA to see the DCI flying become more expensive at least as far as our contract improvements that we are seeking go and thereby a less desirable alternative to the services that you and yours provide?

Obviously most of us who have chosen this profession did so because we prefer it to the 9-5 grind. That said, just as many who have gone before us had the courage of their convictions, so too, I hope at least, do we.

Bottom line, we are not going to stand by and continue to subsidize others salaries,retirements, and exceptionally generous work rules without a fight. We are not asking for the same contract and by extension compensation package by any stretch of the imagination. We will however be recognized and COMPENSATED for the valuable role we continue to play in keeping our airline solvent and viable.

AMF

 

[tbkane]

I hope you do fight, as that is part of being a union. My point is that the sentiment that people can go find a job anywhere and replace their income is not reality. So when it comes down to walking out, I am trying to show what the reality of being on the street is, vs the EMOTION of STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE.

I have a lot of friends left at ASA, and hope them well. I personally would love to be back there myself. Anyway good luck, just trying to show that flying jobs are a comodity that is very hard to get currently, and sometimes it is hard to appreciate what you have until it is gone.

 

[Parethd70]

Clueless....

If you guys think a strike at ASA would be the end of mother Delta you are all clueless. There is the possibility of a Ch. 11 bankruptcy, but an ASA strike would only be a small factor in that decision.

There is also the possibility of Ch. 11 at mother Delta prior to our negotiations coming to a head. If that happens, our negotiating power will evaporate. If you think this whole RFP/45 AC thing is BS, you've seen nothing yet.