If not ALPA, what?

[Typhoon1244]

In my experience, both on this forum and in real life, dues-paying ALPA members in good standing are highly disillusioned with their organization. An awful lot of you feel like ALPA, instead of being the solution, has become part of the problem and is actually doing harm to the airline industry.

It's a point of view I'm having difficulty refuting these days...

Here's my question: suppose we all decided that organized pilot labor isn't working and voted do disband ALPA. The major airlines are not going to, for example, "schedule with safety" out of the goodness of their hearts. If ALPA isn't working, what should take its place? What's the alternative?

 

[DaveGriffin]

The major airlines are not going to, for example, "schedule with safety" out of the goodness of their hearts.

Ha ha, great point. The majors have always found that unsafe scheduling, which leads to accidents, crashes, loss of life and liability payments, is the fastest way to drive revenue and profits.

The saftey issue is just another ALPA propaganda piece that receives very little critical analysis.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Ha ha, great point. The majors have always found that unsafe scheduling, which leads to accidents, crashes, loss of life and liability payments, is the fastest way to drive revenue and profits.

The saftey issue is just another ALPA propaganda piece that receives very little critical analysis.

Several non-union regionals still fly what we call "back-loaded standups." That means you duty-in around 7 p.m., fly to ABC, go to a hotel for five hours, fly back to the hub, then do a round trip to XYZ. And you do it all within the sixteen-hour duty day, so it's nice and legal.

And they do it four days a week. One pilot told me that by the fourth day, he's falling asleep in the cockpit.

You're right! It's much safer without ALPA!

(Can anyone offer an answer to the question I asked?)

 

[DaveGriffin]

Several non-union regionals......

I thought we were discussing majors. That is the language you used in your original post.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I thought we were discussing majors.

You may have noticed there are some majors that own regionals...which is probably the root of the problem.

I think it's a valid assumption: we won't get the schedules or paychecks we want without organization. So if ALPA..or for that matter, unions in general...are broken, what should take their place?

 

[surplus1]

So if ALPA..or for that matter, unions in general...are broken, what should take their place?

ALPA-II?

Typh, there's nothing really wrong with ALPA, what's wrong is the people than run ALPA. All you need to do is clean house. No need to throw out the baby with the bath water.

For starters, change the oligarchy to a real democracy. Create a bicameral structure of governance. Create a "judicial" equivalent. Distribute the "powers" of the governing bodies to achieve balance. Establish a means of amending the C&BL similar to the one that amends the US Constitution.

In other words, emulate our national government more closely, reduce the bureaucrcy, and restore the power to the membership, where it belongs.

ALPA politicos have converted the labor union to a social country club for the rich and famous who spend a lot more time doing unto themselves than representing the membership.

It won't ever be perfect, but a good broom and a strong janitor could do wonders at 1625 Mass and Herndon.

Good luck.

 

[WrightAvia]

Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Colonel! Colonel, I must know what you think has been going on here!
Colonel "Bat" Guano: You wanna know what I think?
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Yes!
Colonel "Bat" Guano: I think you're some kind of deviated prevert. I think General Ripper found out about your preversion, and that you were organizing some kind of mutiny of preverts

 

[DarnNearaJet]

Ha ha, great point. The majors have always found that unsafe scheduling, which leads to accidents, crashes, loss of life and liability payments, is the fastest way to drive revenue and profits.

The saftey issue is just another ALPA propaganda piece that receives very little critical analysis.

If you like cabotage (that's Air Zimbabwe flying ORD-LGA under the "Star Alliance" logo with captains making $20/hour) ...

If you like airline managements cosying up to Capitol Hill without any countering force from labor ...

If you like cameras in the cockpit ...

If you like CVR details aired on "The O'Reilly Factor" ...

If you like the idea of your right to strike taken away ...

If you like the idea of a Pan Am III captain being fired for refusing to fly past 16 hours (and then having his employer still refuse to re-hire him until being placed in contempt) ...

If you like the Air Transport Association to write FAR's without any input from pilots ...

If you like the idea of a chief pilot being able to push you to do things unsafely to "get the job done" ...

Then let's get rid of ALPA and have weak in-house and ineffective unions bargain individually.

 

[enigma]

If ALPA isn't working, what should take its place? What's the alternative?

SWAPA


Seriously, Surplus is correct. A reformed ALPA is the answer. Once the "have not's", wrestle control from the "have's", things will get better. The time is coming, as the old mainlines shrink and the LCC's/regionals/nationals grow, it is only a matter of time until ALPA national will be controlled by pilots from those non-mainline carriers. Then we might have a chance to build, or rebuild, an organization that truly looks after all of its members.

good question
enigma

 

[surplus1]

Re: Re: If not ALPA, what?

SWAPA


Seriously, Surplus is correct. A reformed ALPA is the answer. Once the "have not's", wrestle control from the "have's", things will get better. The time is coming, as the old mainlines shrink and the LCC's/regionals/nationals grow, it is only a matter of time until ALPA national will be controlled by pilots from those non-mainline carriers. Then we might have a chance to build, or rebuild, an organization that truly looks after all of its members.

good question
enigma

Enigma,

I'm really serious and was not being facetious with the comments. I don't really want the have-not's to take control, because anyone in control will probably wind up doing the same thing that's happening now.

1) What I really want is an equitable balance of power. If the governing body was bicameral (like the US Congress) that would help a lot. Create the equivalent of a "senate" where one rep (senator) has one (1) vote. Keep the equivalent of the "house" where the votes (voting members) are based on population of each airline. Both groups would then have to "agree" to pass legislation.

The way it is now, ony 3 men have enough "votes" to decide everything that happens in ALPA. That's fundamentally wrong. Just imagine what it would be like if California, New York, Texas and Florida (example) could "out vote" the other 46 States --- every time. We'd have a revolution -- just like we have in ALPA.

2) Give the Executive Branch (President + 3 National Officers) the power to "veto" (by consensus among them), legislation "passed" by both houses. Give both houses the power to override the "veto" ( 2/3 or 3/4 majority).

3) Create the equivalent of a judiciary. Nine people "appointed by the President, with stipulation that all segments are included (Majors, Nationals, Regionals, Freight). Make it independent from the politicians and give it the power to "interpret" the C&BL and to rule on the policies of legal question.

4) Require a "referendum" of the membership (3/4 majority) or a 3/4 majority of the member MEC's, to ammend the Constitution. (Right now that power truly rests with the same 3-5 men that control the organization).

It is really not rocket science and would remove the question of legitamacy and governance by self-interest that currently prevails.

A Spirt, a Comair, a Skyway and a Delta, must ALL be represented fairly and must ALL have a voice that is truly heard.

It's probably wishful thinking, but it just might work.

 

[Captain X]

In other words, emulate our national government more closely, reduce the bureaucracy

That was, like, a joke and stuff right?

 

[enigma]

Re: Re: Re: If not ALPA, what?

Enigma,

I'm really serious and was not being facetious with the comments. I don't really want the have-not's to take control, because anyone in control will probably wind up doing the same thing that's happening now.

Surplus, My bad. Poor wording on my part. I didn't mean to put words into your mouth.

Your post was obviously on a much deeper level and well thought out, I was just popping off late at night. Now that you have brought it to my attention, I have to agree. Without a fundemental change, having the MEC's of the lower paid companies in charge will eventually end up the same place we are now.

My first sentence, Seriously, Surplus is correct. A reformed ALPA is the answer. , gave you credit for the concept. The second was just poorly thought out and shouldn't have been linked to you.


regards,
enigma

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Men of honor

This is overly simplistic but what is needed are leaders with honor and integrity along with some business savy and vision. Whether it be government or business. The ability to work and play well with others .

 

[surplus1]

Thanks enigma. I truly hope something can be done. ALPA has done a great deal of good over the years and that should not be lost. However, an attitude of elitism developed over a long time and is so imbedded that the institution's leaders appear unable to cope with the evolving industry.

This has its genesis as long ago as the 60's when ALPA refused to admit certain groups that it considered "unworthy" and even went so far as to creat a subsidiary union known as UPA. That failed and eventually the unwashed were "admitted", but they have always been regarded, and more importantly treated, as "lesser members" (for want of a better phrase). There is little question that the equivalent of a caste system is alive and well in the hallowed halls of our "union". Folks like me, and even folks like you, can now come to dinner, but we must park the pickup in the back of the big house and eat in the kitchen (when it comes to true participation in the governing process). That can't survive for too long.

In the early stages it worked, after a fashion. But the proliferation of new entrants after deregulation, the advent of commuter airlines, and especially the introduction of the "regional jet", have created changes that really needed to be seriously addressed. They weren't. Instead we used box after box of band aids, and now we have a big sore and we're out of band aids all at the same time. Meanwhile, the apartheid policies continue to flourish and become even more onerous.

In my opinion, the previous President of ALPA (Babbitt) saw it coming and tried his best to change the attitudes of the 4 Horsemen. Ultimately, it cost him the Presidency of the union, and nothing changed. Instead it just got worse. Sometimes when you're up to your a$$ in alligators, it is wise to take a deep breath and remember that the objective is to drain the swamp.

At this point I think it's bad enough that only a clean sweep and the emergence of a "statesman" (as opposed to another politician) can save the day. The structure of the Association makes that virtually impossible, for the MEC's of the big boys are not going to relinquish or share their absolute power willingly. The current President has personally told me as much. In many ways they remind me of the captain of the Titanic and his unsinkable ship.

Sadly, if the President was right, the demise of the institution may well be in the not to distant future. If that happens, it will not be a good day for the profession of Air Line Pilot nor will it be a good day for trade unionism. Nevertheless, I don't think we can endure too much longer under the equivalent of the "Fourth Reich".

Best regards.