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How valuable is that 1000 PIC?

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Irish Pilot

Irish Pilot

What An Industry
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Posts
186
I currently have a job for a small 121 operation flying about 100 hours a month and am looking at an upgrade in a few months. My fiance and I have been thinking about trying to move back home and that would involve applying to a few regionals out of MSP.

Do I hang out and grab 1000PIC (Twin Turbine) and then go or do I just jump ship with a bunch of SIC to get on the list at a regional?

Thoughts?
 
1000 PIC turbine seems to be the ticket whether it's 121 or not. I'm in the same boat as you. I'm about to start loggin turbine pic. I'm waiting and moving on to a national etc...
 
Not to bust anyone's bubble, but I was faced with this same decision a few months back. I've heard that while the 1000 PIC may be the minimum to interview with most major or national carriers, it is still not very competitive. I know of check airmen at our company with thousands of hours of PIC 121 in regional jets that are trying to get on at companies like SWA, so I'm not so sure how a guy with 1000 hours of PIC in a B1900, Jetstream, or any other light turbine aircraft is going to compete. I have been told that a lot of these guys are being told at interviews to come back after they have flown something bigger. For that reason, I decided to go with the better QOL and just get on at a bigger regional as SIC. Best of luck to you though.
 
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1000 PIC doesn't mean much right now. Maybe a few years down the road, but that's not competitive for any Major or National. I'm assuming your talking about Southwest, JetBlue, FedEx, UPS etc.
 
Fine, mabye 1000 PIC isn't competitive now... But wouldn't you rather have 1000, then go chill in the right seat at some regional? That way if 1000 becomes competitive a couple years down the road or if you finally upgrade... Then you have a 1000 hour head start on getting to the "competitive minimums". If you have the rescources, GET THE 1000!!! Then go yank gear at a regional....

Just my .02.
 
I got hired with a LCC without it. Would I've liked to have gotten the 1000 pic? sure, but you don't turn down a job at a major flying bigger planes because you don't have the covenant 1000 turbine pic.


Fly safe, -JetMonkey
 
You will not prove yourself as a pilot until you start logging PIC. Every employer above the regional level knows that and looks for PIC when they hire a pilot. They do not hire F/O's they hire potential Captains. A friend of mine 12 years at USAirways 10,000 Total time, Three jet type ratings, 9000 MEL turbine SIC, but he only had 500 turbine PIC, that he earned prior to getting hired at USAirways in the late 80’s. He found it impossible to get interviews due to his lack of PIC time.
 
If the company you are currently with is well-operated, I would stick it out for the 1000+ PIC. Although 1000 PIC may not be competitive right now, it may by the time you get the hours. It also puts you that much closer to what is competitive. I believe that SWA is looking for at least 1700-1800 PIC.
 
Yea, from what I heard every time USAirways laid you off they gave a type rating as a going away present. Plus he had one from his corp gig prior to USAirways
 
I know of check airmen at our company with thousands of hours of PIC 121 in regional jets that are trying to get on at companies like SWA, so I'm not so sure how a guy with 1000 hours of PIC in a B1900, Jetstream, or any other light turbine aircraft is going to compete.
Click to expand...

In the last three months CommutAir has lost one pilot to UPS, and 2 to AirTran. Another guys is going to SWA in the next class. Another guys is awaiting a decision from AirTran and America West. In one of the AirTran cases, the pilot only had about 1400 PIC, all in the 1900. Of the guys I know who have interviewed at SWA, 1800-2200 PIC seems to be the magic number.

As said on several threads recently, nobody (or very few) will get hired with 1000 PIC. But at most majors, there is no hope without it. Knowing people who have recently moved on to majors from the BE-1900 with not much more time than me, I find it very encouraging. I don't regret sticking it out in the 1900 for the 1000 PIC.
 
My perception is that 1500 PIC is the "new" 1000 PIC.

Most people I know who have 'moved on' from regionals to larger companies had around 1500 (minimum), give or take a hundred. If you really want to stand out (knowing full well how silly that sounds), I'd suggest going for 2000 PIC.

There are always exceptions, but I think it's fair to say that most people going to UPS, FedEx, SWA, JetBlue, AirTran, etc. (to say nothing of any of the other largest carriers who haven't hired in a while but presumably will at some point) don't have "only" 1000 PIC.
 
Strong recommendation: don't leave yet!

As has been mentioned, nobody wants to hire a "career copilot." While some outfits (regionals, etc) will hire low-time guys, the places that can be more selective want to know that you you have "what it takes" to be in charge of a moderately large, complex, expensive airplane. And the litmus test for that is Turbine PIC time. If you have 1000 hours of turbine PIC, then that means several things:
1. Somebody entrusted you with their expensive, complex aircraft
2. They kept on trusting you with it for a significant length of time (i.e. you didn't screw up too badly in their eyes during your time in charge)
3. You have what it takes to fly such an aircraft & not get violated or otherwise in too much trouble
4. You can probably learn to fly another complex aircraft.

On the other hand, seeing somebody get to the point of being about ready to upgrade, and then leaving, raises a big, nasty question: WHY NOT? And the lingering suspicion is, "because somebody thought he couldn't hack it." And that is a stink you do NOT want to have to overcome when applying for a job. You can explain that you left the job for greener grass (better pay, better qol, be near fiancee/family, whatever), but that's what somebody who got told "you might as well go elsewhere, we aren't going to put you in the left seat" would probably say as well. All the explanations in the world don't erase the stigma. And when somebody is looking at narrowing 6 resumes down to 2 or 3, things like that are a VERY clear discriminator.

Upward progress reflects well on a pilot; leaving in lieu of progressing reflects very poorly. Your call about staying for 1000 hours TPIC (I'd strongly recommend it, and more if you can -- turbine PIC time is turbine PIC time), but even if you just stay for 400 or 500 hours before moving on, don't leave now. The "greener grass" explanation is far more credible when you've proven that you CAN hack turbine PIC for several months, than when someone is looking at your resume wondering why in the world you didn't stay & upgrade, and forming his own (not so favorable) conclusions.

Best of luck in your upgrade!
 
Just out of curiousity, what would be the better choice between these two companies.

Company A) Night freight, all turbine time with advancement into multi-turbine PIC fairly quick (less than 6 months time) but a 1 year training contract.

Company B) 121 airline flying B-1900's with an unknown (although often 1 year or less) upgrade to PIC. Also no training contract.

I never thought I'd have to decide between two potential employers, but with an interview last week and one this week I might have to choose between them. Both have a lot to offer, but are completly different in nature, ie. 121 pax airline vs. 135 single pilot night freight.
 
single engine turbine pic

How valuable would 1000 PIC in a Cessna CAravan or something like that be? I've heard it's just like a big 172. Would a major hire someone with just that kind of turbine PIC?
 
deep thoughts:

1900 time is better than frieght because (I assume) the freight job is not over 12,500lbs - a FedEx minimum.

Caravan time is only good at a place not requiring multi turbine pic (either AmWest or AirTran I believe fits this bill).

In most cases 121 time is better than cargo, although big cargo operators do have respect for people with cargo time.

Your options will be exponentially wider --- I say take the 121 1900 job hands down.
 
I pretty much agree with most of the points of view in this thread. It's pretty clear that you need the 1000 PIC to get a good job. What's not too clear is if 2,000 or 3,000 PIC is what makes the difference in getting a call or not. I'm thinking that 1,000 PIC is one item they check and then maybe other things become more important like education, other airplanes flown, other work experience or who recommends you and to who they recommend you to. Seems to me that after the first 1,000 hours the learning curve levels out a bit.
 
The time gets you the interview. Regardless if you have the time or not if they are interviewing you they are clearly interested. Its up to you from there and how well they feel you fit with the company.
 
Mesaba has had a big number of people go to FDX and WN. All out of the Saab except for a couple. Get the hours in the seat that counts. A good schedule at a crappy regional in the right seat is not going to get you hired at a airline with real pay and medical coverage.
 
Your info says you're flying a DHC-6. I'm not sure how valuble DHC-6 PIC time is... it's basically a big twin-engine cessna caravan, not even over 12500 lbs. Part 121 DHC-6... Is that Scenic Airlines in Vegas? You really want to work there over the summer? I would run from that place base on what I've heard about them.
 
The bottom line is is that once you get the 1000 PIC you will have it forever. It would be a shame to be so close to getting the opportunity to get it and go sit SIC somewhere and wait who knows how long to get another opportunity. While 1000 PIC Turbine may not be "competitive", one sure way of not getting in the door at a company that requires it is not to have it at all.
 
Dodge do you fly for Mesaba? My fiance actually wants to move back to MSP and thats the company I have been looking at. Ive got a few friends flying there and they seem happy.

Thoughts?
 
Flywithmike said:
"I would run from that place base on what I've heard about them."

What have you heard about Scenic?
Click to expand...

Id like to know as well.
 
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An old instructor of mine used to work at Mesaba, said the upgrade time there was indefinite and the place really left a lot to be desired. Thats just one opinion though.
 
I would go for the 1900. It's crew time and 121 time, which is more appealing to many 121 employers than single-pilot single-engine turbine time.
 

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