How to become an FE

[Fins Up]

A Navy P-3 Flight Engineer in my squadron is trying to get his FAA Flight Engineer cert. Obviously he has to take the FE written. He's got about 8,000 hours of FE time? He is being told by the local FSDO that he needs to have an ATP license (not just the written). That doesn't sound right to me? Any PFE's out there have some info on this?

Thanks.

 

[81Horse]

The FSDO is dead wrong. (Big surprise there.) An FE certificate is not a pilot certificate. See Part 63.

http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/63-index.shtml

Your buddy should be able to schedule a written at any time. That was always the case back in the day, when everybody wanted to get their FE writtens passed.

 

[bertengineer]

Fe

I was an USMC enlisted FE on the C-130. I had to get the second class medical and present to thre FSDO the military paperwork showing the FE training. They have all the codes in their book. If the local FSDO does not help him out, call Oklahoma. When I did the FE I was not a pilot. I did have the A&P however.
He will need to take the test, then get permission from your command to have the examiner do the checkride on your P-3. I actually went to Lockheed and used one of their examiners that were on staff at the time. Mr. Bob hill was the guy. i do not know if he is still there, but he would do the ATP and the FE for our guys. I was out of Cherry Point at the time.
Also if there are specific questions go to FAA.GOV and look up the certification and standards. I have pasted some of the info that I hope helps. It sayd that a guy has to have a COMM License..but that is for someone that cannot show FE training in an approved course.



To be eligible for a flight engineer certificate, a person must—
(a) Be at least 21 years of age;
(b) Be able to read, speak, and understand the English language, or have an appropriate limitation placed on his flight engineer certificate;
(c) Hold at least a second-class medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter within the 12 months before the date he applies, or other evidence of medical qualification accepted for the issue of a flight engineer certificate under §63.42; and
(d) Comply with the requirements of this subpart that apply to the rating he seeks.
(Sec. 6, 80 Stat. 937, 49 U.S.C. 1655)
[Doc. No. 6458, 30 FR 14559, Nov. 23, 1965, as amended by Amdt. 63–9, 33 FR 18614, Dec. 17, 1968]
§ 63.33 Aircraft ratings.

[URL="http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/e/ecfr/graphics/ret-arrow-generic-grey.gif"]http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/e/ecfr/graphics/ret-arrow-generic-grey.gif top[/URL] (a) The aircraft class ratings to be placed on flight engineer certificates are—
(1) Reciprocating engine powered;
(2) Turbopropeller powered; and
(3) Turbojet powered.
(b) To be eligible for an additional aircraft class rating after his flight engineer certificate with a class rating is issued to him, an applicant must pass the written test that is appropriate to the class of airplane for which an additional rating is sought, and—
(1) Pass the flight test for that class of aircraft; or
(2) Satisfactorily complete an approved flight engineer training program that is appropriate to the additional class rating sought.
§ 63.35 Knowledge requirements.

[URL="http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/e/ecfr/graphics/ret-arrow-generic-grey.gif"]http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/e/ecfr/graphics/ret-arrow-generic-grey.gif top[/URL] (a) An applicant for a flight engineer certificate must pass a written test on the following:
(1) The regulations of this chapter that apply to the duties of a flight engineer.
(2) The theory of flight and aerodynamics.
(3) Basic meteorology with respect to engine operations.
(4) Center of gravity computations.
(b) An applicant for the original or additional issue of a flight engineer class rating must pass a written test for that airplane class on the following:
(1) Preflight.
(2) Airplane equipment.
(3) Airplane systems.
(4) Airplane loading.
(5) Airplane procedures and engine operations with respect to limitations.
(6) Normal operating procedures.
(7) Emergency procedures.
(8) Mathematical computation of engine operations and fuel consumption.
(c) Before taking the written tests prescribed in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section, an applicant for a flight engineer certificate must present satisfactory evidence of having completed one of the experience requirements of §63.37. However, he may take the written tests before acquiring the flight training required by §63.37.
(d) An applicant for a flight engineer certificate or rating must have passed the written tests required by paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which the flight is taken. However, this limitation does not apply to an applicant for a flight engineer certificate or rating if—
(1) The applicant—
(i) Within the period ending 24 calendar months after the month in which the applicant passed the written test, is employed as a flight crewmember or mechanic by a U.S. air carrier or commercial operator operating either under part 121 or as a commuter air carrier under part 135 (as defined in part 298 of this title) and is employed by such a certificate holder at the time of the flight test;
(ii) If employed as a flight crewmember, has completed initial training, and, if appropriate, transition or upgrade training; and
(iii) Meets the recurrent training requirements of the applicable part or, for mechanics, meets the recency of experience requirements of part 65; or
(2) Within the period ending 24 calendar months after the month in which the applicant passed the written test, the applicant participated in a flight engineer or maintenance training program of a U.S. scheduled military air transportation service and is currently participating in that program.
(e) An air carrier or commercial operator with an approved training program under part 121 of this chapter may, when authorized by the Administrator, provide as part of that program a written test that it may administer to satisfy the test required for an additional rating under paragraph (b) of this section.
(Sec. 6, 80 Stat. 937, 49 U.S.C. 1655; secs. 313(a), 601 through 605 of the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 (49 U.S.C. 1354(a), 1421 through 1425); sec. 6(c), Department of Transportation Act (49 U.S.C. 1655(c)); and 14 CFR 11.49)
[Doc. No. 1179, 27 FR 7969, Aug. 10, 1962, as amended by Amdt. 63–17, 40 FR 32830, Aug. 5, 1975; Doc. 63–21, 47 FR 13316, Mar. 29, 1982]
§ 63.37 Aeronautical experience requirements.

[URL="http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/e/ecfr/graphics/ret-arrow-generic-grey.gif"]http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/e/ecfr/graphics/ret-arrow-generic-grey.gif top[/URL] (a) Except as otherwise specified therein, the flight time used to satisfy the aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (b) of this section must have been obtained on an airplane—
(1) On which a flight engineer is required by this chapter; or
(2) That has at least three engines that are rated at least 800 horsepower each or the equivalent in turbine-powered engines.
(b) An applicant for a flight engineer certificate with a class rating must present, for the class rating sought, satisfactory evidence of one of the following:
(1) At least 3 years of diversified practical experience in aircraft and aircraft engine maintenance (of which at least 1 year was in maintaining multiengine aircraft with engines rated at least 800 horsepower each, or the equivalent in turbine engine powered aircraft), and at least 5 hours of flight training in the duties of a flight engineer.
(2) Graduation from at least a 2-year specialized aeronautical training course in maintaining aircraft and aircraft engines (of which at least 6 calendar months were in maintaining multiengine aircraft with engines rated at least 800 horsepower each or the equivalent in turbine engine powered aircraft), and at least 5 hours of flight training in the duties of a flight engineer.
(4) At least a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating and at least 5 hours of flight training in the duties of a flight engineer.
(5) At least 200 hours of flight time in a transport category airplane (or in a military airplane with at least two engines and at least equivalent weight and horsepower) as pilot in command or second in command performing the functions of a pilot in command under the supervision of a pilot in command.
(6) At least 100 hours of flight time as a flight engineer.
(7) Within the 90–day period before he applies, successful completion of an approved flight engineer ground and flight course of instruction as provided in appendix C of this part.
(Sec. 6, 80 Stat. 937, 49 U.S.C. 1655)
[Doc. No. 6458, 30 FR 14559, Nov. 23, 1965, as amended by Amdt. 63–5, 31 FR 9047, July 1, 1966; Amdt. 63–17, 40 FR 32830, Aug. 5, 1975]
§ 63.39 Skill requirements.

[URL="http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/e/ecfr/graphics/ret-arrow-generic-grey.gif"]http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/e/ecfr/graphics/ret-arrow-generic-grey.gif top[/URL] (a) An applicant for a flight engineer certificate with a class rating must pass a practical test on the duties of a flight engineer in the class of airplane for which a rating is sought. The test may only be given on an airplane specified in §63.37(a).
(b) The applicant must—
(1) Show that he can satisfactorily perform preflight inspection, servicing, starting, pretakeoff, and postlanding procedures;
(2) In flight, show that he can satisfactorily perform the normal duties and procedures relating to the airplane, airplane engines, propellers (if appropriate), systems, and appliances; and
(3) In flight, in an airplane simulator, or in an approved flight engineer training device, show that he can satisfactorily perform emergency duties and procedures and recognize and take appropriate action for malfunctions of the airplane, engines, propellers (if appropriate), systems and appliances.

 

[transpac]

Somebody is badly miscommunicating! I doubt very much if there's any person in any position in any FSDO who would pass out such bum dope. The regulations pertaining to FE certification are easy to understand and clearly don't require the holding of a pilot certificate. A FE with 8000 hours shouldn't have much of a problem passing the required written, oral, and flight tests. But, if the check is to be given in a Navy P3 it will require a friendly C.O. who'll sign a letter authorizing the FAA Inspector or designated examiner to fly aboard the aircraft.

 

[OrionFE]

FE Checkride

I did my FAA FE checkride in the P-3. We got a group of pilots who wanted to get their ATP's and some FE's who wanted to get their types and got Ralph Myers from Van Nuys to come out and do our checks. At that time, our CO and Commodore were on board with it. These days, good luck trying to get an airplane available to do it. You will find these days, there is not a lot of people knowledgeable about FAA FE requirements, including the FSDO's. The requirement for the ATP is basically for someone with no FE experience trying to get a FE lic. All he has to do is, take in NATOPS training jacket and go to any testing facility at a Flight School, FBO, etc and take the computerised test.

 

[transpac]

You will find these days, there is not a lot of people knowledgeable about FAA FE requirements, including the FSDO's.

Don't quite agree with this quote. There is a ton of FE certification still going on. The freight haulers operate hundreds of airplanes that require FEs, and they are hiring. Every 727, 747 Classic, DC-6, DC-8, DC-10, L-188, L-382, and L-1011 has a FE onboard. And, the FSDO folks either do the certification or supervise the APDs who do it for them.

 

[Fins Up]

Thanks for all the responses. I'll pass the info along.

 

[OrionFE]

Don't quite agree with this quote.

The FSDO's not associated with freight operators using PFE's are not familiar with these requirements. I just went through this when I recently added my TJ rating to my lic. It is advised to call ahead and brief them on your intentions, so when you get there, they have had time to review the requiremnts. That is what my local FSDO told me. And I have heard the same thing from several of my PFE collegues who have recently obtained FE ratings across the country.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

And they wonder why everbody has apprehension anytime they have to deal with the FAA! An ATP to get an FE ticket.........do any of the FSDO's even bother to read the regs anymore? Somebody better tell that fed that he needs to get out and start violating all those PFE's in the country....how dare they fly around in all those 747's, 727's, DC-10's, etc. without the proper ratings!!!!

Rant over......There are a lot of good folks at the FSDO's, but the few nincompoops give the rest a bad name. I can see that some of the FSDO's would not be up on all the current in's and out's of FE's now. Given that one does not need an ATP to fly right seat in any airliner in the country, I find it hard to see how a supposed FAA inspector could possibly think they needed it to be a plumber on the thing! This guy has to have been a GA inspector, it is scary to think that such a person could be giving line checks to 121 guys.

 

[Russ]

"Don't quite agree with this quote"

Transpac

Some FSDO's specialize in particular areas. The SAN FSDO has little to do with air carrier/cargo ops and everything to do with GA and 135 operators. Other FSDO's (LAX for instance) are almost exclusively devoted to air carrier operations. That said I'm not surprised the FSDO in question is a bit behind on FE knowledge.