How much for a day?

[antbar]

Hi, all.

I'm a CFII and MEI in the Bay Area, and just starting to know what I'm doing some of the time, to paraphrase Ernest K. Gann.

I'm finding to my surprise that a large portion of my income is starting to come from clients who are rated pilots, but are well-off financially and interested in buying a CFI to copilot their 172, 182, etc. on cross-country trips and generally weigh in on decision making.

My question is, what should I charge these folks? My current full-day rate is $200 (plus hotel if it's an overnighter), compared to my hourly of $60. It should be noted that I'm not just in flight instruction for the time building... I actually enjoy the work and want to keep working on the craft (e.g. I care about the safety and competence of my students), so I'm trying to strike the right balance between giving the time away and $600/day typed corporate pilot stud pay.

One of my clients recently told me that one of the obstacles he had to overcome in his profession was getting over the feeling that he was ripping his clients off by actually billing them fairly, and I can totally see that as a problem for me.

Interested in your comments/experiences in this realm.

 

[minitour]

Full day rate of $200 but hourly of $60?

$60 x 8 = $480.

I'd say at least $350....maybe more. that covers not quite 6 hours of work. Assuming you'll have to plan/file/possibly babysit, 6 hours may not be bad.

I guess it depends on what you're doing. Are you just sitting there enjoying the scenery or are you doing all of the "work"?

-mini

 

[antbar]

Rationalization?

The math makes sense, the way you do it... I guess I'm sort of applying a "bulk discount" for the time. Maybe this is thinking too small? $350 a day is approaching a living wage for the area... is it legal for a CFI to make anything close to a living wage?

As to the nature of the work, it's a heck of a lot less strenuous than instrument or (especially) primary instruction. Flying the plane myself is a refreshing change of pace, I have to say, and watching them do the work and cross checking their IFR/navigation is only minimally stressful. Most of these guys aren't into the star treatment; they do (or at least share equally) the grunt work. I'm not out fueling in the rain without them, put it that way.

I guess the only thing that concerns me about keeping the price of my services up at the $300/day to $500/day level is that I'll price them into flying Southwest (no offense to the SWA guys, and by the way, can I use your name when I put my app in?). I can always tell them that other instructors will do it for less, but you "get what you pay for;" however, when the job starts going into 1st class airfare pricing, I'm worried they'll go elsewhere.

Unfounded?

 

[dogismycopilot]

A local flight school in Orlando quotes Cirrus training at $425/day plus pilot room and board. The hourly rate is $59/hr away from ORL, $55/hr at ORL.

Perhaps this provides a point of reference.

http://www.flyairorlando.com/cirrus_training_rental_rates.htm

 

[CalifDan]

I'm curious how you are logging the time. PIC?, but it is their aircraft. I suppose that the FAA might consider you PIC based on experience (if that is the case) if a problem arose. Is it all dual instruction? Safety pilot? I think if you are just along for the ride to keep them "comfortable" the time can't be logged. There are no copilot requirements in a 172 or 182.

You have a commercial license, so they could hire you to fly their aircraft. Then you are clearly PIC, even if they are sole manipulator of the controls. $200 a day sounds about right for a 172 commercial pilot (probably a bit high if it were full time). Dual might be considered differently.

Is the purpose of your presence to eventually make them comfortable with flying solo cross countries? As I said, I'm not sure how you are logging the time, but if they (experienced pilots) are that uncomfortable on a cross country or with decision making, I'm sure glad you are along.

 

[dogismycopilot]

I suppose that the FAA might consider you PIC based on experience (if that is the case) if a problem arose.

This is the best reason not to "give the time away." Charge a good rate and buy lots of insurance! Thankfully, the CFI isn't usually the deep pocket, but the presence of insurance would make the prosecution more anxious to settle a civil suit out of court. Also, AOPA legal services plan is a great idea if you don't already have it. Certificate action is probably a greater risk than a wrongful death or injury lawsuit anyhow. Also, the student's aircraft insuracne underwriter may be interested in your experience and qualifications. You may want to ask the underwriter for a waiver of subrogation for yourself while giving dual instruction in the aircraft.

 

[antbar]

I confess that I hadn't seen the PIC dilemma. Obviously, any time under the hood is clearly safety pilot work; I log it unashamedly as PIC and, if dual is given, dual given because, by gum, I worked my butt off to get my instructor certs.

For VFR stuff, it's a bit murkier, I suppose. I'm working with one guy on this basis right now (and thinking that one or two others are in the queue), it's all VFR, and my inclination is to log it as PIC and dual because he specifically solicited me as a flight instructor. As in, "I want a flight instructor to come along," as opposed to "I want a commercial pilot to come along."

Basically, if the client wants me to sign his logbook, and if I've done even the most minute amount of instruction (and there's usually a great deal more than that), it's PIC and dual given, as far as I know.

The other litmus test I have for PIC involves the degree to which I feel I am responsible for the flight's ultimate safety, coupled with "can/will the FAA cite me if something goes wrong here?" Specific to your query, I would log it as SIC if I were performing copilot duties in an A/C that required one, but I'm hanging the PIC on the dual given.

 

[CalifDan]

Pic

Antbar,

I agree that you can log any dual given as PIC. I dont think the the issue is murky at all if you are not giving dual or safety pilot services and there is no agreement before the clock starts regarding PIC duties. I'm pretty sure that logging it as PIC because the FAA would hold you as such is short of an agreement to be PIC.

That's why I was curious if they were hiring you as a "commercial" pilot. Then you are clearly PIC and they can log PIC as sole manipulator. Everything else said regarding liability and things you should check, I agree with.

 

[antbar]

This is fascinating. Does any authorized flight instructor start and stop a stopwatch when they open and close their mouths, only logging time as PIC when they are "giving instruction?" If not, how much do they have to say before they are "giving instruction?" If you are hired as an authorized flight instructor, and you get into the airplane and do not say a word except for "good job," or "traffic at 10 high," can you rightly log any portion of the flight (unless, of course, the person you were flying with was unaware of the truth of these statements and you were in fact instructing them as to their veracity)? Were you, in fact, acting as an authorized flight instructor?

Truly, these are deep questions we must ponder in their weightiness. Perhaps we should consult our barristers, and have them dig deeply into the true meaning, history, and context of FAR 61.51(e)(3). WHAT IS, exactly, an authorized instructor?* WHO wrote the FAR? WHY don't they publish the FAR in a narrative form, with a beginning, middle, end, and epilogue that begins "the moral of the FAR IS?" WHERE are PIC agreements covered with respect to their impact on the all-important logging of flight time, at least those pertaining to part 91 ops? Perhaps most importantly, HOW MUCH SHOULD I CHARGE FOR A DAY OF FLIGHT INSTRUCTION?

Peace Love Dove.

* 61.1(b)(2)(ii) defines an authorized instructor as: "a person who holds a current flight instructor certificate issued under part 61 of [this] chapter when conducting ground training or flight training** in accordance with that authority."

** not defined.

 

[CalifDan]

Antbar,

I think you missed the point of the post. My point was that to log PIC you have to agree to be PIC. I don't know why that can't change during a flight. So yes, it could start and stop your logged time.

If you are giving flight instruction, then yes, it can be logged as PIC. However, you describe students who are rated in category and class. If they are PIC and you are the instructor, I would assume that they could also stop having you provide instruction at any point and your time would stop, even if you mouth was still moving, which I suspect in that instance it would be.

I go back to the original post. You do not indicate that you were hired to provide dual instruction. You said you were hired as a CFI true, but the specific quote is "to copilot their 172, 182, etc. on cross-country trips and generally weigh in on decision making". That sounds short of instructing to me.

You have every right to be proud of your CFI credentials and be paid for them. I did weigh in on the price issues, and so was trying to understand the process and thinking that was going into your situation.

You indicate that the aircraft belongs to the "students" so it is clearly a Part 91 operation (well maybe). However, and I know you know this, if the aircraft are ever rented for this activity, the purpose of the flight could easily make it a Part 135 operation. It could even be Part 135 if the Owner (student) brings someone along and charges them to get somewhere, but I'm pretty sure you know those rules. You can't drop grandma off in Sacramento during your dual cross country.

I suggested the commercial pilot option because it does make you PIC, it is loggable, you can fly the owner and his guests anywhere, as long as it is incidental to the effort, and if you want to give a little dual on the way, no problem. And, I think hired PIC is more valuable on a job application than dual given.