How long should a lesson be?

[Catbert]

What is the ideal amount of time to schedule with a student for a flight lesson? 1.5 hrs, 2 hrs, 2.5 hrs, etc. How much of that should be ground and how much flying? Additional considerations are the usual time-eaters: juggling the hangar, fueling the plane, preflight, paperwork, etc.

Discuss and share your reasons, any evidence, and experiences. References to studies that have been done would be great.

Of course I've got my opinions, but I'm saving them for later in the discussion before I muddy the waters.

 

[gkrangers]

I would block 2 hours for a routine training flight.

~ 1.2 of flight...the rest for the other BS.

If you plan on having a "real" ground session..do it seperately from the flight.

 

[-Xavier-]

I would block 2 hours for a routine training flight.

~ 1.2 of flight...the rest for the other BS.

If you plan on having a "real" ground session..do it seperately from the flight.

Agreed for the ground session part.

Keep in mind I'm not an instructor but I go to a Part 141 school and these are from my observations up to IR.

A "real" good ground session where you actually open books and get into systems and whatnot should be a seperate from the days you do flight lessons. I think 1-hour flight sessions is about the right time, granted going over or under .2 are certain things I think are okay.

I would tell him to block out 2 hour intervals for the total session of the day - Going out to the airport, going over what you will be completing today, then pre-flight, flight portion, then de-brief.

 

[NW_Pilot]

Agreed for the ground session part.

Keep in mind I'm not an instructor but I go to a Part 141 school and these are from my observations up to IR.

A "real" good ground session where you actually open books and get into systems and whatnot should be a seperate from the days you do flight lessons. I think 1-hour flight sessions is about the right time, granted going over or under .2 are certain things I think are okay.

I would tell him to block out 2 hour intervals for the total session of the day - Going out to the airport, going over what you will be completing today, then pre-flight, flight portion, then de-brief.

As a student I learned more in a 2 hour flight, 1st .5 is monkey see & monkey do second .5 is monkey do second 1.0 is learning proficiency. Every student is diffrent & should be evaluated for their own learning pattern.

 

[banned username 1]

When I instructed way back when, the place was jumping and the prevailing wisdom was that you only got paid when the planes were moving. It was quite a production line. I think time and maturity has changed my perspective.

While a flight school doesn't make much money unless the hobbs meter is running, an instructor and the scheduling method needs to use all resources to the best of their abilities.

An instructor only has his knowledge and skill as his product to sell. He needs to be thoughtful as to how he packages and sells it. As an instructor, time is money. You need to sell your time, because during it, you're dispensing your product. Your product is no different than any other consumer item. You also have competition- the other instructors. Part of the product package is how well the student gets taught- and how efficiently. We're spiralling into a philosophical thesis here that could fill a book.

The bottom line is that a student generally has about an hour's worth of grey matter that you can try to fill up in the airplane. There's also about 15 minutes of pre and postflight "chalktalk" that they should get to prepare for the flight and to cement the material afterward. You should be paid for every minute that you are giving value to a student and to me, that says that the lesson block lasts about 2 hours and there's going to be about 30 minutes worth of stuff like the preflight, servicing, etc/who knows what/chit-chat that is going to come with the territorry that's a "freebie".

That said, for all students out there who train at an uncontrolled field and are doing pattern work, if you don't get at least 7 or 8 touch and go's per hour, find another place to learn to fly. Also, if you find that you're talking more on the radio, announcing every minute aspect, than you are to your instructor, flee! Flee at once!

 

[CA1900]

Of course, on the flipside, you get a student who flatly refuses to pay for any amount of ground instruction, thinking they'll "save the expense." In reality, all it does is tack on the expense of the airplane and instructor drilling holes in the sky while I explain what we're doing, when we could have done the same thing ahead of time on the ground for only the cost of the instructor.

They weren't frequent, but I ran into them from time to time. The one that sticks out in my mind was a girl who worked at the FBO nextdoor to us, and wanted to do her private. But there was a catch that she threw in, right from the beginning: "I don't want to buy any ground instruction, because my husband's working on his CFI, and I want to get it from him."

Despite my suggestions that his contribution might be a better supplement than a replacement for a seasoned instructor, she insisted. She didn't see the false economy at all -- she wouldn't even spend a few minutes of ground time on pre-flight briefings. And I don't work for free, so out to the plane we went.

Not surprisingly, she made very slow progress because about a third of every flight was flying straight and level (or sitting in the run-up pad, hobbs running) while I explained what we were going to do. Arrgh. Eventually she moved on, sensing she "wasn't making progress" with me. She wasn't interested in letting me teach -- what did she expect?

Ahhh, I'm getting nostalgic. No, not really.

 

[banned username 1]

Isn't that just the way? Some things never change. Did you find out if she ever finished her training? I'll bet not. Those who think they have all the answers end up never finding them.

You've no doubt heard me rant that we're our own worst enemies. I'll bet that the people who expect us to give away educational "worth" for free, don't try to negotiate with the plumber who comes to fix their pipes. Of course no instructor looks at his watch before he enters into every conversation about flying, but people need to realize that although they may be learning how to fly for pleasure, for the guy in the right seat, it's his business. It needs to be understood from the first lesson, how it's going to "be" and that the instructor will give "value" to the time spent (and the money spent) but that time is the only thing that an instructor can bill for. I would also hope that most places have cancellation policies that are adhered to and that it's also understood up front.

I hope this thread will be of benefit of the guy starting it as well as students and prospective students so they can understand an instructor's point of view. What's fair is fair and expect value for your time and money spent. Seems easy enough.

Be well

 

[CA1900]

Isn't that just the way? Some things never change. Did you find out if she ever finished her training? I'll bet not. Those who think they have all the answers end up never finding them.

You know, I never checked. I look up lots of my students to see what they've done and where they're living (and am often pleasantly surprised to see how far they've gone), but for some reason I didn't have much interest with this one. Let me look...

You were right! Never got her certificate, and never got another medical/student cert. after the one we were working under. I guess the only thing I'll never know is if she soloed; she didn't solo while I was flying with her.

Of course no instructor looks at his watch before he enters into every conversation about flying, but people need to realize that although they may be learning how to fly for pleasure, for the guy in the right seat, it's his business.

Absolutely right, no question about it. I lost a few students on the first lesson because of that -- they were really genuinely upset that I was charging them for pre- and post-flight briefings, walk arounds where I was involved, and so forth. They said their previous instructors never charged them for ground instruction. And all I can think is, "Why not?"

My only retort was that they'd get their money's worth out of me. I was reasonable about it -- I certainly wasn't billing briefing time while I was brewing a cup of coffee inside while they were preflighting the airplane. But reviewing the lesson? Filling out the logbook? Assigning homework? That was all part of my job, and giving it away devalues it for all of us.

I would also hope that most places have cancellation policies that are adhered to and that it's also understood up front.

Oh, man, did that particular one get me in hot water. Our school had a standing policy that if a lesson was canceled with less than 24 hours' notice. Well, one of my instrument students would, quite literally, cancel on about 20 minutes' notice. He did this three days in a row.

When his monthly statement came, he went ballistic, demanding to know "who I thought I was" charging him for time he didn't use! "You did use it, sir. How do you expect me to fill a slot on 20 minutes' notice?"

Just amazing how little our time is valued in this business, I tell ya!

 

[smellthejeta]

Dang. Am I the only mofo around here who looks at his bill, pays it if it's fair, and then moves on? I won't nickel and dime a guy trying to make an honest living. Sure, I might question a bunch of charges, but if they're legit, I pay them and move on.

 

[banned username 1]

....there's an avatar from the past....

 

[pgcfii2002]

Mine were all about 3 hours.
.5 ground
.5 preflight
1.0-1.5 flight
.5 postflight ground

Trick is to keep the lesson short enough so the student does not get tired.

 

[aviator1978]

I think it's best to keep the flight time under 1.5 hours for initial private pilot students. I made the mistake with one of my first students who could only fly on the weekends. He wanted to do 2 lessons per day, with each lesson being 2-3 hours. I remember on the second day, demonstrating stalls to him, looking over and seeing him green. Remember that while 2 hours in a plane in nothing to a CFI, it can be alot for the early student.

As far as ground instruction is concerned, I tell my students up front that we will be doing it and to factor that in to the cost of their license.

For me, the students attitude toward ground really determined what and when they got charged. I had one guy that was constantly whining about costs; however, he would call me with questions, would interupt me with other students, and then would tell me that the .5 additional was outragous. Guess what, he always got charged. Other students that I had who were polite got away with more free ground than they ever paid for. Students reading this, keep it in mind.

 

[taloft]

Your lesson might be too long when...

- Someone starts comparing clouds to Barney the Dinosaur

- After 20 minutes of spin training, the instructor says "I don't feel so good"

- You hear " I thought YOU brought the port-o-potty"

- You hear "Wait until you see this!"

- You say, "Yeah, but can you do it inverted?" while making the crossing inverted motion with your hands

- You start telling bad jokes and everyone thinks they're incredibly funny

- You say, "We'll work on that next time"

- You hear, "Hey, where did the ground go?"