How do I log UPT student time?

[Tonedrvr]

I have 270.1 hours on my AFORMS pilot summary and I'm not sure if I should log it as SIC or simply add it to my total time? Any ideas?

 

[TankerDriver]

Don't log it as SIC. It's "Dual" student time. You flew with an instructor in a formal training program. None of it is SIC. There is one exception and that is if you were solo, which you can log as PIC. SIC is time in an aircraft that is required to have two pilots under its type certificate. Niether the T-6 or T-37 are typed for two pilots. The T-1 (Beech 400A) is, but again, you were in a training program that was not designed as an SIC training course. To avoid all confusion, just log it as dual turbine time and count it towards your total time.

 

[MarineGrunt]

First, keep your military time out of your civillian logbook. That will save you from a LOT of headaches. I log my mil time in LogbookPro, combined with my civ time. For interviews, i just give them my civ logbook and military flight time print outs (from flight records) and thats it. I let them add the two. I have heard this is what others do as well. I kept a paper military logbook up until UPT graduation, then gave up.

 

[AlbieF15]

MG,

I logged over 3000 military hours in my "civ" book--complete with remarks and names of wingmen/flightleads/ and other info. Its been a treasure chest of memories, and keeping up with it hasn't been too daunting because I update it weekly/bi-weekly. It ain't that tough to keep up with..

Also..when that admin person screws the pooch, I've still got the info. Wasn't a big deal for me, but for that 5-7 year guy trying to transition from fighters to getting an ATP, every hour is important. You don't want to lose any to "clerical errors..."

Plus...my favorite pages have entries like F-15C/F-15D/NAV-4G/727/727/F-15C/727/727/NAV-4 etc etc. Its kind of life journal....

 

[Huggyu2]

Agree: I'm not a fan of using the electronic logbooks. I log my flights in a small pocket calendar when I get back to my desk. Each month, I get my AFORMS print out, and verify the info with what's in the calendar. Then I neatly enter it into my real logbook. As Albie says, the comments are worth a mint when you go back and look at them. Plus, I track stuff that AFORMS doesn't, like whether I was the PIC or not.

 

[RedDogC130]

Log it as Dual until your winging date unless alone then PIC.

 

[ExAF]

Keep the Log

I'm on the same page as Albie here. I started a logbook in UPT and kept it ever since. The records of tail numbers and personal notes are filled with fantastic memories. Names of people I've flown with, some of which are famous or legends now (some in their own minds). It documents some of the more famous aircraft (like the F-4 Ritchie flew that is on the USAFA terrazzo now). It records significant events like flying over the Papal Nuncio (sp?) in Panama when they cornered Manual Noriega. At the time you think you'll never forget these events, but believe me after a few years, those details will fade. When fellow pilots (conducting the interview) started looking through them at various interviews, you would be surprised how interesting they found them and how much it stimulated the conversation on a favorable basis. Keep the logbook, someday you will be glad you did even if you don't use it for career advancement.

P.S. I'm talking manual old fashioned logbook of course...they didn't have electronic logbooks back in the day.

 

[Mud Eagle]

To continue this thread derailment on how to log military time...

Albie is probably a better person to comment on this, given his consulting business, but I have heard mixed reviews of logging both military and civilian time together.

On one hand, I don't currently fly very much civilian so all the hours I need to go get my ATP, to log my biannual, landing currencies, etc, are all in military airplanes. I also agree wholehartedly with what has been said all ready about a personal logbook being a good backup to your AFORMS printout and your logbook being a good memory of great times you had flying for Uncle Sam.

On the other hand, I've had one retiree squadronmate who went to an interview at an airline and there were some hours differences between his AFORMS printout and personal logbook -- he hadn't been dilligent about bringing his logbook to his quarterly records reviews and correcting problems with the AFORMS printout on the spot. Over the course of his career, this led to differences in total hours.

This led to a lot of a$$pain in the interview, and tap-dancing to explain why his records weren't air tight. This guy recommended keeping logs separate, and just bringing your AFORMS print-out ONLY to the interview to keep it simple.

As for me, I used to log my military flights in my paper logbook. After hearing this retiree's story, I decided to stop logging my mil time in my personal log, and leaving it up to AFORMS.

After two or three years of this, I started to feel like this was a mistake, and I decided to switch to an electronic logbook (a simple Excel spreadsheet). It took literally two or three weeks of work, going back in and filling in my logbook based on my AFORMS printout. Now I log my military time along side my civil time, and I am meticulous about cross-checking the AFORMS.

The good thing about the electronic logbook is that I get the best of both worlds. When it's time to go to the airline interview someday, I'll simply filter out all the military entries and take my AFORMs printout instead. Also, it allows me to apply modifiers to the fighter time if the particular airline does that. As a fighter guy, I also take the time to log cross-country time when the sortie fills that requirement (e.g. to a point more than 50NM away from where you departed).

 

[Tweetdrvr]

I agree with Albie and ExAF, log your time in a book so you can have good stories to tell your friends, children, and maybe an interviewer down the road.

If I had it to do over, I would have bought one of those blue pilot logbooks at the BX and put everything in there that my individual 781 from each flight had on it. That way I could have kept track of each amount of primary, secondary, etc, etc... Then I would have created separate columns for civil equivalent, Pt 61 PIC, Pt 1 PIC, SIC and Night and anything else you could think of. As it stands now, my flight records and my logbooks merely exist to compliment each other, as long as big chunks of time do not dissappear, I am pretty happy. I have no idea what my total Pri/Sec or Instructor times are, when I fly I am usually the PIC due to being an old fart, so it goes in my log book as such, but at the same time when flying with an active duty young FAIP, I usually give them all the instructor time on the 781 because it is more valuable to their career than mine. I don't do the usual split the pri/sec in half or take the extra tenth in my favor if it is an odd number. Likewise when I get a checkride or fly with someone who outranks me and is qualified in the jet, I put Dual Received in my own logbook regardless of what is put on the 781. My 130 time is all SIC for the same reasons and my night time from 130s is half of what the AF says due to the fact the AF only logs your primary night time which could be half of the time you were actually airborne at night.

It is probably too late for you to go back and do an entire JSUPT logbook, unless you have every 781 and every TIMS gradesheet for each lesson. But if you do, here is what I would do based on my CFI time, time in the ANG, and talks with Albie and a few others.

The T-6 is a single turbo prop high performance aircraft that does not require a type rating. If you already had a SEL-Private prior to UPT, you only need a high performance (not complex) signoff to fly it. By reading the CFAR part 61.41 (A) (1) (i)

"§ 61.41 Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA.
(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:
(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either—
(i) The United States; or
(ii) A foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation.
(2) A flight instructor who is authorized to give such training by the licensing authority of a foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, and the flight training is given outside the United States.
(b) A flight instructor described in paragraph (a) of this section is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given. "

I would take everything prior to C4201 as Dual Received, and from C4202 and on as Part 61 PIC/Dual Received and would log solo time as Part 1 PIC.

For T-37 students, what few of you are left, The T-37 also doesn't require a type rating, but requires a Letter of Authorization to own/fly one as a civil pilot if you had that much money to feed and care for a T-37. It is also multi-engine. As a UPT student, you do not get your multi-engine rating until graduation when you take your first Form8 to the FSDO with the letter from your squadron. So unless you already possess a multi-engine rating, you should log all of your dual time as dual received, and your solo time starting with C2502 could be logged as PIC and would count for both Part 1 and 61 definitions. If you already have a multi, I think academics, and all the training up to mid-phase C2790 would satisfy the FAA requirements for one of those warbird letter of authorizations. Think of it this way, if you won the powerball or megamillions the day after your midphase, and you just had to have a Tweet, the FAA would probably let you fly it if you bought one as private citizen. So I could see an argurment for taking everything as PIC/Dual Received either after C2501 or C2790

For T-1 track students, Read 61.51 (f) (1) and (2) and 61.55 (a) (1) and (2) and (b) (1) (i-v) You have to have a multi engine rating to Log SIC in a multi-engine airplane. If you have a multi prior to UPT, then the ground school and sims you do before you actually fly the jet counts as the training program and all the items in 61.55 (b) (1) (i-v), so your first flight is SIC. You are being trained as PIC, but the IP is PIC. So your time counts as the acting PIC which fulfills the requirements required by the FAA for the issuance of a type certificate upon graduation.

Now if you want to go for hairsplitting and more lawyering skills than I have. If you had a multi already, I can see an argument where ground school and the transistion check flight and ground eval fulfull the requirements for a type rating even though the AF is not going to give you a letter until after graduation when you are program complete, you could maybe claim everything after your transition check as Part 61 PIC/Dual received.

For everybody, what good does Part 61 PIC/Dual Received do for you? Not much if you are an active duty bubba with a ten year hitch, by then none of this will matter, you should have plenty of outstanding Part 1 PIC and your total time will be commensurate with your airframe/career path.

For ANG/Reserve students, I believe even if you come to UPT with just a private SEL, when you graduate and you are out trying to get that first commercial gig flying charter at the FBOs in the right seat of a Citation or maybe PIC in a one of the Pipers that has the same basic engine as the T-6, that you are more better trained and equally as qualified as the CFI who just got their multi rating and has never seen kerosene to fly one of these aircraft. They logged or got logged for them PIC/Dual received when they were working on their commercial and CFI and most FBO operators are going to take that as PIC time when they are looking for someone to ride right seat in the King Air or Citation. So if this might be in your future, log it that way.

For active duty guys, I will tell you I have seen people wash out or medically DQ from UPT for various reasons who have gone on to get airline jobs or other professional flying jobs. If you found yourself out of the program tomorrow before finishing UPT, would not you want as much time as possible logged in a way that could help you continue flying if that is what you wanted to do in life?

Sims count for nothing but Sim time do not include these in your total time, they are flight training devices and you can count your approaches and holding patterns for instrument proficiency, but none of our seems meet level C or D certification requirements or if they do, the AF doesn't pay to have them certified.

As far as instrument time goes and night time, if you were flying and your IP logged it for ourselves as we are allowed to do both by AF and by FAR, I would put it your log book. The syllabus assumes we meet the requirements for your night and instrument (actual or simulated) either in the jet with the hood in phase II for T-6/37s or in all those I-sims and no where does this time show up in your flight records at graduation even if your IP put it on the 781.

BTW, How did you get 270 hours at UPT? Last I checked, it was 89 hours in T-6/37s and about 110 ish in the T-38/T-1 track.

 

[Scrapdog]

I agree with Albie and ExAF, log your time in a book so you can have good stories to tell your friends, children, and maybe an interviewer down the road.

If I had it to do over, I would have bought one of those blue pilot logbooks at the BX and put everything in there that my individual 781 from each flight had on it. That way I could have kept track of each amount of primary, secondary, etc, etc... Then I would have created separate columns for civil equivalent, Pt 61 PIC, Pt 1 PIC, SIC and Night and anything else you could think of. As it stands now, my flight records and my logbooks merely exist to compliment each other, as long as big chunks of time do not dissappear, I am pretty happy. I have no idea what my total Pri/Sec or Instructor times are, when I fly I am usually the PIC due to being an old fart, so it goes in my log book as such, but at the same time when flying with an active duty young FAIP, I usually give them all the instructor time on the 781 because it is more valuable to their career than mine. I don't do the usual split the pri/sec in half or take the extra tenth in my favor if it is an odd number. Likewise when I get a checkride or fly with someone who outranks me and is qualified in the jet, I put Dual Received in my own logbook regardless of what is put on the 781. My 130 time is all SIC for the same reasons and my night time from 130s is half of what the AF says due to the fact the AF only logs your primary night time which could be half of the time you were actually airborne at night.

It is probably too late for you to go back and do an entire JSUPT logbook, unless you have every 781 and every TIMS gradesheet for each lesson. But if you do, here is what I would do based on my CFI time, time in the ANG, and talks with Albie and a few others.

The T-6 is a single turbo prop high performance aircraft that does not require a type rating. If you already had a SEL-Private prior to UPT, you only need a high performance (not complex) signoff to fly it. By reading the CFAR part 61.41 (A) (1) (i)

"§ 61.41 Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA.
(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person received the training from:
(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training military pilots of either—
(i) The United States; or
(ii) A foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation.
(2) A flight instructor who is authorized to give such training by the licensing authority of a foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, and the flight training is given outside the United States.
(b) A flight instructor described in paragraph (a) of this section is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given. "

I would take everything prior to C4201 as Dual Received, and from C4202 and on as Part 61 PIC/Dual Received and would log solo time as Part 1 PIC.

For T-37 students, what few of you are left, The T-37 also doesn't require a type rating, but requires a Letter of Authorization to own/fly one as a civil pilot if you had that much money to feed and care for a T-37. It is also multi-engine. As a UPT student, you do not get your multi-engine rating until graduation when you take your first Form8 to the FSDO with the letter from your squadron. So unless you already possess a multi-engine rating, you should log all of your dual time as dual received, and your solo time starting with C2502 could be logged as PIC and would count for both Part 1 and 61 definitions. If you already have a multi, I think academics, and all the training up to mid-phase C2790 would satisfy the FAA requirements for one of those warbird letter of authorizations. Think of it this way, if you won the powerball or megamillions the day after your midphase, and you just had to have a Tweet, the FAA would probably let you fly it if you bought one as private citizen. So I could see an argurment for taking everything as PIC/Dual Received either after C2501 or C2790

For T-1 track students, Read 61.51 (f) (1) and (2) and 61.55 (a) (1) and (2) and (b) (1) (i-v) You have to have a multi engine rating to Log SIC in a multi-engine airplane. If you have a multi prior to UPT, then the ground school and sims you do before you actually fly the jet counts as the training program and all the items in 61.55 (b) (1) (i-v), so your first flight is SIC. You are being trained as PIC, but the IP is PIC. So your time counts as the acting PIC which fulfills the requirements required by the FAA for the issuance of a type certificate upon graduation.

Now if you want to go for hairsplitting and more lawyering skills than I have. If you had a multi already, I can see an argument where ground school and the transistion check flight and ground eval fulfull the requirements for a type rating even though the AF is not going to give you a letter until after graduation when you are program complete, you could maybe claim everything after your transition check as Part 61 PIC/Dual received.

For everybody, what good does Part 61 PIC/Dual Received do for you? Not much if you are an active duty bubba with a ten year hitch, by then none of this will matter, you should have plenty of outstanding Part 1 PIC and your total time will be commensurate with your airframe/career path.

For ANG/Reserve students, I believe even if you come to UPT with just a private SEL, when you graduate and you are out trying to get that first commercial gig flying charter at the FBOs in the right seat of a Citation or maybe PIC in a one of the Pipers that has the same basic engine as the T-6, that you are more better trained and equally as qualified as the CFI who just got their multi rating and has never seen kerosene to fly one of these aircraft. They logged or got logged for them PIC/Dual received when they were working on their commercial and CFI and most FBO operators are going to take that as PIC time when they are looking for someone to ride right seat in the King Air or Citation. So if this might be in your future, log it that way.

For active duty guys, I will tell you I have seen people wash out or medically DQ from UPT for various reasons who have gone on to get airline jobs or other professional flying jobs. If you found yourself out of the program tomorrow before finishing UPT, would not you want as much time as possible logged in a way that could help you continue flying if that is what you wanted to do in life?

Sims count for nothing but Sim time do not include these in your total time, they are flight training devices and you can count your approaches and holding patterns for instrument proficiency, but none of our seems meet level C or D certification requirements or if they do, the AF doesn't pay to have them certified.

As far as instrument time goes and night time, if you were flying and your IP logged it for ourselves as we are allowed to do both by AF and by FAR, I would put it your log book. The syllabus assumes we meet the requirements for your night and instrument (actual or simulated) either in the jet with the hood in phase II for T-6/37s or in all those I-sims and no where does this time show up in your flight records at graduation even if your IP put it on the 781.

BTW, How did you get 270 hours at UPT? Last I checked, it was 89 hours in T-6/37s and about 110 ish in the T-38/T-1 track.

Tweet- just FYI...I went through Sheppard in 2000 and logged about 250 out of UPT. He could have been an ENJJPT grad...usually you get a few more hours out of there because of less sim time.