How ALPA should work

[shroomwell]

Its probably been said before, so bear with me. Obviously there needs to a national pay scale, national senority would never work. ALPA needs to set payrates that are respectable and on par with other vocations that require the same amount of training and resposiblity.

That being said how is ALPA going to enforce these payrates.
1. DW needs to step down. New leadership is needed.
2. It will be difficult and some ailrines will probably fail, but no contract should be signed unless these rates are accepted. The sacrifices of a few will benefit the masses in the long run.
3. If carriers do go under, the pilots from there will be hired first by any ALPA carrier that is hiring.

Now how to deal with undercutting and low wages?
From a certain day forward any pilot who takes a job at a 121 carrier whose payrates are below that of the ALPA rates, will never be hired by an ALPA carrier. All pilots currently working for now ALPA companies with low wages are granted a one time reprieve. Hopefully this would encourage them to join ALPA and get a better contract. Pilots working for SWA and AA would not be effected because there current rates would probably be on par with the ALPA rates.

Next, what about the Mesa's of the industry?
They are ALPA and in there next contract management would be forced to take the new wages. If the pilot group wishes to accept lower, they are no long ALPA members.

Its time for the union to play hardball. If we could all UNIFY and do something like this the industry would be forced to raise fares to compensate for increased costs. It would be hard at first, if prices go up capacity would have to go down. In the short run it would be tough, but in the long run it would be better for all around. Alter Ego flying and contracting carriers would not make financial sense if this could be imposed.

Its time for ALPA to grow a pair. Otherwise we need a union.

 

[Jack Schitt]

.......this is your brain on drugs.

 

[Occam's Razor]

shroom,

Maybe a separate thread entitled: "How ALPA Does Work" would be a better idea.

There are a lot of misconceptions about how the national union works. Setting pay rates is one of them.

Each pilot group, led by their MEC, sets their rates. They do it based on the economic realities of their airline's situation. Small airlines such as Skyway have different priorities than airlines such as FedEx...which has different priorities than United.

You understand the implication, and addressed it (in a rather sanguinary manner, I think) with this:

"It will be difficult and some ailrines will probably fail, but no contract should be signed unless these rates are accepted. The sacrifices of a few will benefit the masses in the long run.
3. If carriers do go under, the pilots from there will be hired first by any ALPA carrier that is hiring."

Assuming you think a seniority-based system is still preferable to a merit-based system, you're advocating Russian Roulette with our careers.

Did your airline get hammered by a mechanics strike?

Too bad, dude! Welcome to the bottom of my list!

Your airline suffer a couple of hiccups due to malevolent cannibals at the controls?

So sorry! Time for you to start over!

We are a homogenous profession...but not a homologous one.

We actually have differing value, even though we are essentially doing the same thing.

A 500-hour PFT nugget flying right-seat in BE-1900's SRQ-MCO while living in his parent's basement is not the equivilent of a 20,000-hour rime-encrusted skipper driving B747-400's across vast distances of salt water that is mostly over your head.

We have enough upheaval in the industry now without inserting forced shuffling in the name of minimum wage.

The concept of "minimum pay" for piloting aircraft is not new. I've read impassioned comparisons to plumbers, citing how all members of the plumbers union make the same regardless of where they work.

Then I checked.

They don't.

Union plumbers in NYC make more than union plumbers in SDF.

Union actors (Actors Equity Association) make more in NYC than actors in LAX. Union electricians in SFO make more than union electricians in GPT.

Union members at each property and/or region have the right to set their contract priorities based on their environment and circumstances.

ALPA's function is to provide the resources, guidance, and support for the efforts of each pilot group to get the best deal they can, based on their circumstances.

ALPA provides a Major Contingency Fund for um...major contingencies, Representation support provided by a stink-pot (the collective form for lawyers) of Labor attorneys, and the Economic & Financial Analysis (E&FA) department to explain things like EBITAR and "crack split" (It's actually not what I thought it was...). SWAPA and APA have both used ALPA's E&FA services...for a hefty fee.

If you go on strike, as the Comair pilots did in 2001, the rest of the your brothers chip in and send you money, in the form of strike benefits.

The union provides superb Air Safety support, the best Aeromedical sevices on the planet, and legislative affairs efforts to prevent pointy-headed rascals (aka "senators", "congressmen", and "presidents") from legislating us back into the Dark Ages. The success of such efforts typically corresponds to the affiliation of the party in power at the time, and the audacity of the their brilliant suggestions, such as foreign ownership and cabotage.

>>>1. DW needs to step down. New leadership is needed.<<<

If you are disappointed in the direction your pilot group is headed, you need to look little closer to home. The pilots YOU elected are the one's who elected Duane...and are the only one's who can un-elect him.

In the Summer of 2001, nobody within ALPA was complaining about pattern bargaining, or the direction and leadership of ALPA. United was a year into the DubinskyWorld contract (check out the thrilling helicopter ride!), and Delta had just scored a breathtaking leap-frog of that. Comair was into a 89-day strike that told every management weasel in the industry that "regional" pilot groups were a force to be reckoned-with.

Any talk of a national seniority list then?

Noop!

The cycle is now down...waaaaay down. ALPA carriers are trying to protect their contracts in the face of the Perfect Storm (bad economy, bad fuel prices, bad Administration, bad events). Every negotiating committee in ALPA is working harder than Ricky Martin's girlfriend. The goal is to weather the storm, then go back to the bread-and-butter of unions in a capitalist economy...pattern bargaining.

One list?

Bad idea.

 

[dsee8driver]

Its probably been said before, so bear with me. Obviously there needs to a national pay scale, national senority would never work. ALPA needs to set payrates that are respectable and on par with other vocations that require the same amount of training and resposiblity.

That being said how is ALPA going to enforce these payrates.
1. DW needs to step down. New leadership is needed.
2. It will be difficult and some ailrines will probably fail, but no contract should be signed unless these rates are accepted. The sacrifices of a few will benefit the masses in the long run.
3. If carriers do go under, the pilots from there will be hired first by any ALPA carrier that is hiring.

Now how to deal with undercutting and low wages?
From a certain day forward any pilot who takes a job at a 121 carrier whose payrates are below that of the ALPA rates, will never be hired by an ALPA carrier. All pilots currently working for now ALPA companies with low wages are granted a one time reprieve. Hopefully this would encourage them to join ALPA and get a better contract. Pilots working for SWA and AA would not be effected because there current rates would probably be on par with the ALPA rates.

Next, what about the Mesa's of the industry?
They are ALPA and in there next contract management would be forced to take the new wages. If the pilot group wishes to accept lower, they are no long ALPA members.

Its time for the union to play hardball. If we could all UNIFY and do something like this the industry would be forced to raise fares to compensate for increased costs. It would be hard at first, if prices go up capacity would have to go down. In the short run it would be tough, but in the long run it would be better for all around. Alter Ego flying and contracting carriers would not make financial sense if this could be imposed.

Its time for ALPA to grow a pair. Otherwise we need a union.

Please do not drink the Kool Aid!

 

[PCL_128]

Occam's Razor, that was possibly the best, most coherent post ever written on Flightinfo. Because of that, prepare for the barrage of flames from the ALPA-hating morons that wouldn't know the difference between an MEC and an MCF. The legion of uninformed half-wits is rather large here.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam's Razor, that was possibly the best, most coherent post ever written on Flightinfo. Because of that, prepare for the barrage of flames from the ALPA-hating morons that wouldn't know the difference between an MEC and an MCF. The legion of uninformed half-wits is rather large here.

1. Thanks. (Note to self: Two beers seem to work better than four...)
2. Squawking about ALPA is ok. ALPA is certainly not perfect, which makes it an easy target when times are rough. But ALPA does do what it was created to do: Give each pilot group the resources to negotiate a contract.
3. Some pilots think ALPA is Superman and penicillin all rolled into one, and should be able to rescue our profession from the Evil Empire. I view those pilots more as "entertainment" than "critics".

 

[Swass]

Every time I squawk ALPA I get in trouble. Damm those no fly zones

 

[shroomwell]

Occam's Razor, I read your post, It seems as though you are just apathetic. I understand that it is very easy to be that way in today's environment. If my suggestions are no good, then please come up with some better ones. Your arguments make sense, but they are precisely the reason we are in the situation that we are in. Apathy will get us no where, we need major changes.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam's Razor, I read your post, It seems as though you are just apathetic.

I re-read my post, looking for a whiff of apathy. If it's not too much bother, could you point out what I wrote that suggests that?

The irony of the charge is that I'm actually in the arena.

If my suggestions are no good, then please come up with some better ones.

1. Concentrate on things that are possible. Perpetual motion and cold fusion could make you rich...but would be spendy in development costs.
2. Bust your hump to fight the threats to our profession; not the people working to protect and enhance it.
3. Get involved. Your congressman and senators should know your name from all the letters, calls, and visits they get from you! Constituents who are engaged, rational, and willing to put forth effort to change things get the attention of legislators who are used to (wait-for-it!) apathetic "sheep".
4. Back the PAC! Unless you think foreign ownership and cabotage are "career enhancers" for you....fight them like the scourges they are.
5. Fly safely. Our profession is a good one because we act like professionals.

Your arguments make sense, but they are precisely the reason we are in the situation that we are in.

Huh?

Common sense is the reason the industry is in a severe down-cycle, so we must abondon it? Could you exand on that? I want to make sure I don't misunderstand your point here.

Apathy will get us no where, we need major changes.

I hear you, brother! If there's one thing pilots feel compelled to do in times of crisis...it's act! We are doers, not watchers. Each of us is a goal-oriented operator trained to act pragmatically when faced with a dire situation [insert theme to "The High And The Mighty" here], sans emotion.

My concern is actions taken now that might do us more harm than good after the tide turns. If you are convinced a national seniority list is good for all of us (you should probably let us know if it would be good for you personally...), then perhaps it should be placed on our to-do list when all the furloughees are back on the property, and we're hiring again.

 

[pilotyip]

Hi again Occam, all that is a great idea, but you have left out the dynamics of the marketplace. Anything that raises the price of an airline ticket will reduce the number of people flying. Fewer people fly, need for fewer airplanes and pilots. You not just competing with other airlines, you are competing with ground transportation for flights of less than 1000 miles. You are also facing the use of discretionary income; income used for unnecessary things you like to do. If the price is too much, the rider will elect not to do it. The marginal rate of change of ridership to price is close to perfectly elastic. So after we restore the wages to the 2000 UAL contract levels, how many pilot will still have jobs?

 

[Publishers]

And just who are you to set a value that I will accept and work for. What is the acceptable rate for an "ALPA Captain"? Just who is it that decides whether an airline captain should be a $20,000 a year job, or, a $250,000 a year job? Congress cares about your pay level or do they care about all the people in the back of the aircraft who vote in their district?
Lastly, there is no unity on this thread let alone the industry.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Hi again Occam, all that is a great idea, but you have left out the dynamics of the marketplace. Anything that raises the price of an airline ticket will reduce the number of people flying.

Disagree. Every shred of speculation and prediction on the future of air travel in the US indicates that RPM's will increase by over 25% over the next 8-10 years.

I certainly don't think fewer people will be flying.

You not just competing with other airlines, you are competing with ground transportation for flights of less than 1000 miles.

I think the distance cut-off is 150-miles (expressed as 3-hours drive time). The exceptions are Hawaii (driving from Maui to Oahu is tough), and parts of Texas (now wired with actual electricity!).

The competition part is the key. If the President gets his way, foreign nationals/airlines will be able to own US airlines. The Chinese (the commie ones, not the islanders) are already prosperous owners of US transportation infastructure (shipyards, etc), and Sir Dick Branson is salivating at the prospect of cherrypicking lucrative domestic US flying. (Virgin to Fargo? Don't count on it Oly!)

Bush's "backdoor" scheme to get foreign ownership under the tent flap via NPRM, vice legislative action, is a direct threat to YOUR profession. His support for cabotage is a bonus...not!

You are also facing the use of discretionary income; income used for unnecessary things you like to do. If the price is too much, the rider will elect not to do it.

At least all the executives will be flying to India to visit their employees! That, and they'll need to visit their villas in Florida, California, and North Dakota. Their larva will require accessable transportation too, so all is not lost.

So after we restore the wages to the 2000 UAL contract levels, how many pilot will still have jobs?

Depends. In your crystal ball is Air Zimbabwe flying ATL-LAX and MEM-SEA...or is that stuff still being done by NorthDeltaNental Airlines?

Will we have the grit to fight those threats?

My guess is that 30% of those reading this post will be thinking, "Gee, I wonder if Air Zimbabwe is hiring?...and, What's their QOL?"

40% of us are reading this, thinking, "Yikes! I better get busy and do something to help stop it!" (Unfortunately, 50% of that group will hear the theme song to Family Guy as they are getting ready to drive down to their congressman's office, and will lose their concern right after Brian exclaims, "If you need me, I'll be in the next room chewing on my a$$ for 5-minutes!")

The other 30% are a mixture of self-fooling idgits who think they're immune to industry upheaval because their paychecks are clearing, ALPA-hating trolls who are still upset about _______ (Age 60, FFDO's, Political Endorsements. Choose one), and truly apathetic slugs whose idea of paradise is a 54" plasma TV, a keg of Bud, a tub of Cheetos, and a catheter.

 

[pilotyip]

occma all your projections of growth are based upon exisiting market conditons, if your ticket rises to level to support 2000 UAL contract pay without stuffing first class at $1200 one way DTW-MCO, there will be a new equation. I take my sisters for instance, they fly down to Fla to see mom for the weekend, fares in advance are like $175 round trip DTW-MCO. They would not make that trip to see mom on the weekend for $300. They would go once per year for a week or so. The fact of de-reg is that it drove down prices is reflected in today's travelers, they used to ride the bus or drive, but it is so darn cheap to fly; they now fly. If prices go up to support 2000 pilot pay they will drive or not make the trip. The airlines can not force a higher priced product on to the flying public they can make choices

 

[Occam's Razor]

Yippie,

You're targeting a number, and I'm focused on a trend. The economic controls on the service (air travel is a service, not a product), are the same as any other service industry:

A. How much does it cost to provide the service? [Control: How much your service "providers" need to be compensated, how much the service vehicles cost, and how much other "other stuff" costs]
B. How much can you generate in revenue for the service? [Control: How many others are offering it, and what are they charging]
C. How much your government protects or impedes your ability to generate your service at a low cost. [Controls: Taxes, regulatory restrictions, etc]

Pay rates from 2001 will be back again. The questions become:

1. When??
2. What will inflation have done to it by then?

Obviously pilots are being compensated now more than they were in the 30's, 40's 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's. Have the two linked comparisons (purchasing power, and quality of life) reflected that increase decade-over-decade?

Probably depends on where you sit, and what your needs are.

I think it's an over-simplification to assume that your sisters will stop going down to see mom if thte price gets to be $300. If mom is sick, or they start earning more...they're there!

If their jobs go to India, or their industry gets smacked by the government, all bets are off.

The pricing power of US airlines is poo poo right now. Capacity, subsidized competition, and government voodoo needles being jammed into our spleens are hurting us.

I advocate getting the government to knock-it-off, and getting self-serving managers to die from starvation.

I think that will start the trend going the way we want it. If we don't reach 2000 levels before I hang 'em up...so be it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Occam,

Many have great ideas for the current Perfect Storm. However these ideas would work against us during growth, if/when it returns. This is why no one was calling for a National Sen list or National payscales during growth.

Like what you said about perpetual motion and cold fusion: if I had a million dollars everything would be better... Now here is the trick: HOW am I going to get a million dollars? Offering non pragmatic solutions for others to figure out how to solve has no place at the table. It is distracting and counter productive.

Right now ALPA is what we got. ALPA was cool in the late 90's when growth was happening. All one had to do was pay thier 1.95% and forget about it. But now, during the Perfect Storm, ALPA seems to be FUBAR. ALPA isn't a silver bullet, but it does have in place stop gaps and barriers, to weather the Perfect Storm. Finally, until the ALPA haters replace what we got I am going to support ALPA. When the replacement happens I'll support the replacement.

The trick?

We have to get informed and involved.

Keep up the good post. And yes BACK the PAC!