Re: Civil debate
dasburt said:
Now on the other hand just saying that I am clueless and I am “chock full of inaccuracies, rhetoric, mistruths, and borderline lies” is not enough in a civil debate. I don’t believe my reply was not civil in its tone or opinions.
Please inform me of how I am wrong in my observations of the regional airline industry and ALPA. I do not take these boards as “Gospel” but I do listen to a lot of sources and have been greatly educated about many aspects of your industry, just as you did about updating me about what ALPA is doing for JE and Mesaba.
Das,
Sorry for coming out with guns blazing. I'll do my best to answer your original post and clear up some misconceptions. Frankly, it just gets old hearing moaning and groaning from a) bitter "regional" pilots and b) people who only "hear things" from bitter "regional" pilots. A union is what you make of it.
Below, I will attempt to comment on your post in a polite and respectful manner. Hope it all comes out right.
Well that was an interesting thought. Ever wonder why most of the production of movies and television shows in Hollywood are now produced in Canada and other Countries (Australia, New Zealand). NO STUPID UNION RULES THAT PRICE THE PRODUCTION RIGHT OUT OF BUSINESS. My brother worked at Universal for 18 years, so I do have some insider knowledge of the industry.
Here is an example of where you don't keep an open mind and where you are obviously not trying to be "educated." You've made up your mind that the SAG rules are "stupid union rules." Until you've worked in that industry, it is hard to call those rules "stupid." Perhaps they are, I don't know. I am only familiar with the airline industry when it comes to unionization, etc. Please also remember that SAG is a true Guild and not a union like ALPA is. I wish the airline pilots of the USA were a guilded union. Things would be a lot better.
You idea is well written but not well thought out. SO if a pilot with XYZ is laid off and he is a really bad pilot he is automatically OWED a job at another airline. And he gets seniority over other current pilots at ZYX airline that hired him. Can you imagine the resentment in the cockpit, when you have a pilot with 5 years of seniority at this company and he is now displaced to the right seat, because of this guy in the left seat, that had 6 years seniority at another company and now is working at ZYX airline. JUST AINT GOING TO HAPPEN, bubba.
I somewhat agree with you here. A national seniority list would be VERY difficult to implement fairly.
I will have to agree with you that ALPA is a half $#@ of a union. Just my outsiders observation.
As you admit, it is an outsider's observation. You have no insider experience so to say that ALPA is a "half $#%&" union is unfounded.
Unions have their place today, but most of them don’t care a hoot about the workers they represent, just the power that comes with being a host shot in the union.
Again, what factual basis supports this claim? How many ALPA representatives do you know? I am in pretty good touch with most of the guys here at my airline and have met several guys holding national positions and they are stand-up dudes. Always available and willing to help. Your comment brings nothing to the table.
People representing your Pilot group (or any other group) negotiating with the airline, should be employed with that airline not ALPA. ALPA should only be a Central committee that advises each airlines union board. ALPA should be a central collection point of all data that the union members need to negotiate with their airline (Financial numbers and such).
DAS, an ALPA Negotiating Committee is typically made up of 3 line pilots, sometimes 4. Those 3 or 4 pilots are supported by an ALPA staff negotiator/attorney who writes the contract language and provides guidance on strategy and tactics. Other ALPA advisors are pulled to the table for the appropriate sections such as Retirement & Insurance, Compensation, Safety & Recorded Data, Drug & Alcohol, etc. When all is said and done, an enormous amount of resources are poured into each bargaining process. However, it is the pilots who said the direction and pilots who make the decision - PERIOD.
No ALPA Leadership should be paid for anything they do. At least not more than the lowest paid FO flying for any ALPA contract. PERIOD.
Again, this statement makes no sense. The elected reps (MEC/LEC) are all volunteers. Much of the other committee work is volunteer also. However, there are some positions that are full time such as the Negotiating Committee. They work 100% full time on the contract process. Should they work for free? At my airline they are paid at the hourly rate that they can hold on the line. Our NC is made up of 2 captains and 1 first officer. To even suggest that a Captain who has 8 years with a company should be making first year pay while he is negotiating the pilot's contract is ludicrous.
Why should some YAHOO at ALPA be paid big bucks? Who decides what the ALPA leadership gets paid anyway? I bet a few FO’s that ALPA represent will have something to say about the Leaderships salary. How come ALPA members don’t have the right to vote on the salary of ALPA leadership?
Who are you to call anyone who works for ALPA or volunteers their time to their union a "YAHOO?" A tad ridiculous, no? I know the guys who work for my MEC and they are worth the money we are paying them. They work far harder than the average line pilot, trust me. The full time flight pay loss policy at my MEC is reviewed at every MEC meeting, which is quarterly. The pilots have their voice through their elected leadership. That is the process. It is a "ground up" organization. If a pilot doesn't like something, he can write a resolution at an LEC meeting and his reps must take it to the MEC level. Again, your ignorance (whether intentional or not) is showing here.
And can anyone explain how ALPA can get a contract signed with a mainline carrier that penalizes pilots at that same carriers wholly owned regional and those regional pilots are supposed to be represented by ALPA. No wonder ALPA has been sued by its own members and LOST.
If you understood the dynamics a bit more here, you'd also know that it isn't "ALPA" that gets anyone a contract but rather each individual MEC. Furthermore, it is the major airline's MEC that controls the code in these situations and not the small jet providers. If you were better informed, you'd also understand the "system scope" approach that ALPA is undertaking at the moment, due mostly in part to the findings of the Bilateral Scope Impact Committee. This month's ALPA magazine has a great article on it.
How come ALPA has not screamed like as stuck pig when US Air is going to charge regional pilots to fly in the back when the jump seat is not available? Yet the Main Line God like Pilots don’t have to pay a penny when they non-rev on the Regionals. Is that what you call Pilot Solidarity?
What on earth are you talking about here? All airlines have non-rev charges. At my airline, it is $10 each way until you reach 10 years seniority. The same holds true for our network carrier, CAL. I don't know most other airline's pass policies, but I think Delta (and their SJP's) all non-rev for free. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. The point is - this statement that you just made is rhetoric and incorrect.
When I heard that the striking FO's where making more money from the strike fund than from flying for COMAIR.
That also isn't true. The ALPA strike benefits are a stipend and do not provide for a higher salary than the CMR FO's were getting. You seem to forget to factor in taxes, medical coverage, lost retirement match, etc. There's always more to the story.
Looks like the guys and gals at MESABA are up against that same wall. I hope and pray it works out for them.
I agree wholeheartedly. They have my support, both financial and emotional.
Of course you do have the problem of total lack of loyalty by the MAIN line Pilots. How come Delta ALPA pilots allow the guys and gals at ASA and COMAIR to be paid less then they get. Or how come they allow 3 different contracts for the pilot groups?
It is called the RAILWAY LABOR ACT. I suggest you go to the National Mediation Board's website at
www.nmb.gov and do some reading. Not too exciting, but you'll learn a lot. Delta pilots can't negotiate for a group that is certified as a different class and craft under the RLA and vice versa. For each class and craft there must be a different agreement.
If COMAIR and ASA are wholly owned by Delta, should not Delta Mainline ALPA Pilots demand that the 3 groups merge into a single group, with a single VOICE?
They can demand all they want but until the NMB recognizes them as one single class and craft, its nothing more than a fantasy. Where's the leverage here?
[Continued next post]
That is what ALPA's Pilot-to-Pilot program is all about. Personal interaction and one on one education - the best kind. 
