how about some self respect as pilots

[Trash8Mofo]

I know some of you support the scope, and some dont. But why do you think that the wages are going down and down? The biggest factor is, of course, market demand. ALPA, no matter how ever powerful we might be, we cannot bend demand and supply. We can delay wage-cut, but we cannot aviod it from happening if the pilot group want the company to remain competative. But what else? I think that the biggest factor other than market demand is: career entrance difficulty.

Lets face it, the make-up of the pilot group has changed. From the old days of just milatary pilots, we have a good supply of civilian pilots as well from different background. And it is some of these pilots that have driven the wages down. I am not saying that we must have a college degree to be a pilot, and I would not go so far as calling some of us scabs. But some of us are just too darn eager to fly a shinny new CRJ 700/900, or a Q400. Some of us go from a shinny new C172R to a shinny new CRJ, and will fly it for next to nothing all because "I cant belief they pay us to do what I would have done for free otherwise" mentality. Dont you think we need some self respect?!

Lawyers and doctors have a fairly vigorous selection process and also a self-governing board. But any of us who have 40grand to spend could be a pilot (given a couple years as a CFI, a couple more years as a night check-flyer, then next to nothing as reginal FO). It is the process to become an airline pilot that make people want to fly a shinny plane at the end for next to nothing.

I think that ALPA should have a certification board for civilian pilots as well. I think that if we make the entrance criterion more difficult, other than going to those mom-and-pop flight schools, we might start having some self-respecting pilots who will not take a $150K 737 pilot job for $75K and replace it with a CRJ. what do you think?

 

[climbhappy]

i think i see your point, but sometimes it's a little vague.

supply and demand rule. Period. It's not a question of self respect. This is darwinism at it's finest. Pilots will eagerly give lip service to unions and taking a stand, bash each other under cover, and then say yes, when is the class date.

Trying to ask for self respect, when 6000 thirties and forties are laid off, and then throw in the thousands of twenty somethings wanting to get in the the game, and you have a TRAINWRECK!

Airliine ticket prices are hugely price sensitive, so it's the customer who is driving this thing. My question is will wages rise as a result of ticket prices going back up since the economy is expanding. Will Midwest go back ot the their business model of the nineties, will majors go to the desert and add capacity thus reducing the amount of regional flying?

What will happen between the dogfight of Southwest, airtran and jetblue . Will US Air be around after Southwest comes to Philly?

 

[VFR on Top]

The problem lies in the fact that ALPA isn't a real union, or at least, a half-assed one. Here in CA, if you have a SAG (Screen Actors Guild) card, you're paid at LEAST scale regardless of what studio's employing you this week. NFL players, same deal; no NFL rookie makes less than $300k, regardless of what team they play for, that's the floor. What's more, people in both these "unions" are free to take their services elsewhere, or be traded. There should exist an ALPA-wide seniority list based on date-of-hire at one's first airline including the regionals. With universal seniority, pilots wouldn't get screwed every time inept management runs an airline into the ground or gets put on the auction block (a la AA/TWA, etc, etc). Mainline carriers would be still free to hire ex-military pilots, but they'd remain junior to somebody with 6 yrs experience at a regional carrier and subsequently hired by that mainline carrier. And pilots would not be locked into a single company, but remain free to take their experience elsewhere without starting over at the bottom of another company's seniority list. Along with this concept, there should be a standard set of ALPA-wide work rules and one pay formula. It would eliminate whipsaw, any "race to the bottom", and force management to truly manage (instead of today's incessant brow-beating) if it wants to have a cost advantage over its competitors.

I'm sure none of these ideas are novel, and I wouldn't be surprised if they're not actually legal, given the pro-business bent of Congress.

 

[dasburt]

Ah Socialism on the Flight Deck

VFR on Top

Well that was an interesting thought. Ever wonder why most of the production of movies and television shows in Hollywood are now produced in Canada and other Countries (Australia, New Zealand). NO STUPID UNION RULES THAT PRICE THE PRODUCTION RIGHT OUT OF BUSINESS. My brother worked at Universal for 18 years, so I do have some insider knowledge of the industry. Any idea where Stargate SG1 is produced? Answer Vancouver, Canada. Remember Farscape. Australia. Lord of the Rings, New Zealand.

You idea is well written but not well thought out. SO if a pilot with XYZ is laid off and he is a really bad pilot he is automatically OWED a job at another airline. And he gets seniority over other current pilots at ZYX airline that hired him. Can you imagine the resentment in the cockpit, when you have a pilot with 5 years of seniority at this company and he is now displaced to the right seat, because of this guy in the left seat, that had 6 years seniority at another company and now is working at ZYX airline. JUST AINT GOING TO HAPPEN, bubba.

You might want to check out a Karl Marx book, your theories are very similar.

I will have to agree with you that ALPA is a half $#@ of a union. Just my outsiders observation.

Unions have their place today, but most of them don’t care a hoot about the workers they represent, just the power that comes with being a host shot in the union. People representing your Pilot group (or any other group) negotiating with the airline, should be employed with that airline not ALPA. ALPA should only be a Central committee that advises each airlines union board. ALPA should be a central collection point of all data that the union members need to negotiate with their airline (Financial numbers and such). No ALPA Leadership should be paid for anything they do. At least not more than the lowest paid FO flying for any ALPA contract. PERIOD.

Why should some YAHOO at ALPA be paid big bucks? Who decides what the ALPA leadership gets paid anyway? I bet a few FO’s that ALPA represent will have something to say about the Leaderships salary. How come ALPA members don’t have the right to vote on the salary of ALPA leadership?

And can anyone explain how ALPA can get a contract signed with a mainline carrier that penalizes pilots at that same carriers wholly owned regional and those regional pilots are supposed to be represented by ALPA. No wonder ALPA has been sued by its own members and LOST.

How come ALPA has not screamed like as stuck pig when US Air is going to charge regional pilots to fly in the back when the jump seat is not available? Yet the Main Line God like Pilots don’t have to pay a penny when they non-rev on the Regionals. Is that what you call Pilot Solidarity?

On the other hand unions can’t do much if the pilot groups are not willing to strike. Of course that is very easy to write. I have never been faced with having to go out on strike. The one common factor that is true about all strikes. The striking workers will never really get back the money they lost while on strike. UPS had that strike a few years ago. The teamsters state they won. It took an average of 750 days for each striking employee to earn back the money they lost while on strike and start to make more money than they did before the strike. Of course something like 12000 part timers where fired. WOW what a victory.

I am not in favor of strikes! Well that is how I felt a few years ago. AH Maturity.

Yet as with the COMAIR strike when you’re up against the wall and the company has a gun shoved up your backside, you just don’t have much of a choice. When I heard that the striking FO's where making more money from the strike fund than from flying for COMAIR. I became a FIRST TIME union supporter because of this strike. COMAIR BUBBAS you done good.

Looks like the guys and gals at MESABA are up against that same wall. I hope and pray it works out for them.

Of course you do have the problem of total lack of loyalty by the MAIN line Pilots. How come Delta ALPA pilots allow the guys and gals at ASA and COMAIR to be paid less then they get. Or how come they allow 3 different contracts for the pilot groups?

If COMAIR and ASA are wholly owned by Delta, should not Delta Mainline ALPA Pilots demand that the 3 groups merge into a single group, with a single VOICE? Can you imagine the terror that would stick right into the hearts of the Delta board members if that would ever happen. WOW what an interesting concept, Pilots standing side by side supporting each other against the same company they ALL work for.

How come ALPA has not screamed bloody murder when Delta threaten to outsource to the lowest bidder (That is supposed to be a dirty word to UNION bubbas) COMAIR flying because those guys and gals had the courage to refuse any concession on their contract. WHERE WAS ALPA THEN? It is amazing that Delta goes after one of the few profitable parts of their company.

Any way guys and gals that is my 2 cents worth. I am not in the Regionals (YET, Hope to be next year) so I do not have a lot of insight into your industry, just my observations from reading these boards and my friends that are in the Regionals.

Take care have a nice holiday and FLY SAFE.

DAS

 

[Sam Fisher]

Re: Ah Socialism on the Flight Deck

Any way guys and gals that is my 2 cents worth. I am not in the Regionals (YET, Hope to be next year) so I do not have a lot of insight into your industry, just my observations from reading these boards and my friends that are in the Regionals.

This was the only true statement in your entire post. You aren't fly for a "regional" yet and you aren't involved with ALPA at all, and as such, you have zero clue what you are talking about. You take these boards as "gospel" and have yet to do real research to find out the whole story. Your post was chock full of inaccuracies, rhetoric, mistruths, and borderline lies.

Hate to sound harsh but it is posts like yours that further the lie and misconception that "ALPA is a mainline pilot's union" and "ALPA only cares about Delta and United pilots while screwing the little guy." Talk to anyone at ExpressJet and ask them about the resources that ALPA has dedicated to their contract efforts for the past 20 months or so. Ask the guys at Mesaba about the strike benefits that will soon be flowing their way and how much support they've received from ALPA National. You sir....need to learn a little before speaking on a subject of which you have no experience.

Just my 2 cents.

Happy Holidays!

Sam

 

[dasburt]

Civil debate

Sam

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate you updating me on what is happening at EJ and Mesaba. That is what these boards are all about, providing information and correcting inaccuracies or misconceptions. This information is something I was not aware of. Good to hear that ALPA is working for the little guy.

Now on the other hand just saying that I am clueless and I am “chock full of inaccuracies, rhetoric, mistruths, and borderline lies” is not enough in a civil debate. I don’t believe my reply was not civil in its tone or opinions.

Please inform me of how I am wrong in my observations of the regional airline industry and ALPA. I do not take these boards as “Gospel” but I do listen to a lot of sources and have been greatly educated about many aspects of your industry, just as you did about updating me about what ALPA is doing for JE and Mesaba.

I will be the first one too admit that my opinion on a subject could be wrong and I would gladly listen to a civil exchange of ideas and truths about the subject I discussed in my reply. But to just say I am wrong does not further the debate nor make you correct in your assertions. I both want and need all the correct information regarding this industry and ALPA prior to seeking/taking a job in this industry.

So Sam, could you please clarify how I was wrong. If my opinions and observations are based on false information then I would greatly appreciate your opinions and factual data.

Education is always welcomed.

Being from a military background I was a rabid anti union bubba. From what I have learned on these boards, and from working for non union companies for the last 10 years, from friends at Regionals and the reading I have done since leaving the military, I am not such a rabid anti union bubba anymore. As I wrote before, the COMAIR strike made me see the light as it were. So I am willing to listen to anyones opinions and factual information.

Well that’s my 2 cense again. Just a pilot wanting to be better educated with courteous exchange of ideas and information.

Once again thanks for the information on JE and Mesaba. Any idea where to send a contribution to the Mesaba Pilot fund? Look forward to reading your reply.

My email address is [email protected]

Hope you all have a good Holiday and a great New Year.

DAS

 

[VFR on Top]

Re: Ah Socialism on the Flight Deck

You idea is well written but not well thought out.

I'll agree with that; it was late, I wasn't really up for going into it in detail.

Originally posted by dasburt
SO if a pilot with XYZ is laid off and he is a really bad pilot he is automatically OWED a job at another airline. And he gets seniority over other current pilots at ZYX airline that hired him. Can you imagine the resentment in the cockpit, when you have a pilot with 5 years of seniority at this company and he is now displaced to the right seat, because of this guy in the left seat, that had 6 years seniority at another company and now is working at ZYX airline.

Nope, he's not OWED a job anywhere; but if someone DOES hire him, then his universal seniority holds for pay, bidding, and furlough purposes, just as it would for anyone else who made a lateral move. See, this "at-company seniority" is part of the problem, not the solution. In any other industry, you can vote with your feet if management behaves badly. In this one, management knows it can get away with behaving badly because they've got you by your seniority number. This starting over at the bottom crap beacuse your company tanked, is simply that...crap. If the only way to make it to CEO was to rise through the ranks, we'd see different attitudes out of management but the truth is, they're not beholden to the company for their future livelihood, why should you be?

Now, since it's pretty difficult to get fired under a collective agreement, the union might build in seniority penalization if you DO manage to get fired for cause--but again, you're still not OWED a job anywhere, you'd still have to convince another company to hire you again.

Originally posted by dasburt You might want to check out a Karl Marx book, your theories are very similar.

Maybe so, but let's call a spade a spade here: the concept of same-company-seniority is sort of a socialist crutch itself; in a capitalist world, you should be able to market your experience anywhere and not be worse off for it. Why not? Management can.

 

[Sam Fisher]

Re: Civil debate

Now on the other hand just saying that I am clueless and I am “chock full of inaccuracies, rhetoric, mistruths, and borderline lies” is not enough in a civil debate. I don’t believe my reply was not civil in its tone or opinions.

Please inform me of how I am wrong in my observations of the regional airline industry and ALPA. I do not take these boards as “Gospel” but I do listen to a lot of sources and have been greatly educated about many aspects of your industry, just as you did about updating me about what ALPA is doing for JE and Mesaba.

Das,

Sorry for coming out with guns blazing. I'll do my best to answer your original post and clear up some misconceptions. Frankly, it just gets old hearing moaning and groaning from a) bitter "regional" pilots and b) people who only "hear things" from bitter "regional" pilots. A union is what you make of it.

Below, I will attempt to comment on your post in a polite and respectful manner. Hope it all comes out right.

Well that was an interesting thought. Ever wonder why most of the production of movies and television shows in Hollywood are now produced in Canada and other Countries (Australia, New Zealand). NO STUPID UNION RULES THAT PRICE THE PRODUCTION RIGHT OUT OF BUSINESS. My brother worked at Universal for 18 years, so I do have some insider knowledge of the industry.

Here is an example of where you don't keep an open mind and where you are obviously not trying to be "educated." You've made up your mind that the SAG rules are "stupid union rules." Until you've worked in that industry, it is hard to call those rules "stupid." Perhaps they are, I don't know. I am only familiar with the airline industry when it comes to unionization, etc. Please also remember that SAG is a true Guild and not a union like ALPA is. I wish the airline pilots of the USA were a guilded union. Things would be a lot better.

You idea is well written but not well thought out. SO if a pilot with XYZ is laid off and he is a really bad pilot he is automatically OWED a job at another airline. And he gets seniority over other current pilots at ZYX airline that hired him. Can you imagine the resentment in the cockpit, when you have a pilot with 5 years of seniority at this company and he is now displaced to the right seat, because of this guy in the left seat, that had 6 years seniority at another company and now is working at ZYX airline. JUST AINT GOING TO HAPPEN, bubba.

I somewhat agree with you here. A national seniority list would be VERY difficult to implement fairly.

I will have to agree with you that ALPA is a half $#@ of a union. Just my outsiders observation.

As you admit, it is an outsider's observation. You have no insider experience so to say that ALPA is a "half $#%&" union is unfounded.

Unions have their place today, but most of them don’t care a hoot about the workers they represent, just the power that comes with being a host shot in the union.

Again, what factual basis supports this claim? How many ALPA representatives do you know? I am in pretty good touch with most of the guys here at my airline and have met several guys holding national positions and they are stand-up dudes. Always available and willing to help. Your comment brings nothing to the table.

People representing your Pilot group (or any other group) negotiating with the airline, should be employed with that airline not ALPA. ALPA should only be a Central committee that advises each airlines union board. ALPA should be a central collection point of all data that the union members need to negotiate with their airline (Financial numbers and such).

DAS, an ALPA Negotiating Committee is typically made up of 3 line pilots, sometimes 4. Those 3 or 4 pilots are supported by an ALPA staff negotiator/attorney who writes the contract language and provides guidance on strategy and tactics. Other ALPA advisors are pulled to the table for the appropriate sections such as Retirement & Insurance, Compensation, Safety & Recorded Data, Drug & Alcohol, etc. When all is said and done, an enormous amount of resources are poured into each bargaining process. However, it is the pilots who said the direction and pilots who make the decision - PERIOD.

No ALPA Leadership should be paid for anything they do. At least not more than the lowest paid FO flying for any ALPA contract. PERIOD.

Again, this statement makes no sense. The elected reps (MEC/LEC) are all volunteers. Much of the other committee work is volunteer also. However, there are some positions that are full time such as the Negotiating Committee. They work 100% full time on the contract process. Should they work for free? At my airline they are paid at the hourly rate that they can hold on the line. Our NC is made up of 2 captains and 1 first officer. To even suggest that a Captain who has 8 years with a company should be making first year pay while he is negotiating the pilot's contract is ludicrous.

Why should some YAHOO at ALPA be paid big bucks? Who decides what the ALPA leadership gets paid anyway? I bet a few FO’s that ALPA represent will have something to say about the Leaderships salary. How come ALPA members don’t have the right to vote on the salary of ALPA leadership?

Who are you to call anyone who works for ALPA or volunteers their time to their union a "YAHOO?" A tad ridiculous, no? I know the guys who work for my MEC and they are worth the money we are paying them. They work far harder than the average line pilot, trust me. The full time flight pay loss policy at my MEC is reviewed at every MEC meeting, which is quarterly. The pilots have their voice through their elected leadership. That is the process. It is a "ground up" organization. If a pilot doesn't like something, he can write a resolution at an LEC meeting and his reps must take it to the MEC level. Again, your ignorance (whether intentional or not) is showing here.

And can anyone explain how ALPA can get a contract signed with a mainline carrier that penalizes pilots at that same carriers wholly owned regional and those regional pilots are supposed to be represented by ALPA. No wonder ALPA has been sued by its own members and LOST.

If you understood the dynamics a bit more here, you'd also know that it isn't "ALPA" that gets anyone a contract but rather each individual MEC. Furthermore, it is the major airline's MEC that controls the code in these situations and not the small jet providers. If you were better informed, you'd also understand the "system scope" approach that ALPA is undertaking at the moment, due mostly in part to the findings of the Bilateral Scope Impact Committee. This month's ALPA magazine has a great article on it.

How come ALPA has not screamed like as stuck pig when US Air is going to charge regional pilots to fly in the back when the jump seat is not available? Yet the Main Line God like Pilots don’t have to pay a penny when they non-rev on the Regionals. Is that what you call Pilot Solidarity?

What on earth are you talking about here? All airlines have non-rev charges. At my airline, it is $10 each way until you reach 10 years seniority. The same holds true for our network carrier, CAL. I don't know most other airline's pass policies, but I think Delta (and their SJP's) all non-rev for free. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. The point is - this statement that you just made is rhetoric and incorrect.

When I heard that the striking FO's where making more money from the strike fund than from flying for COMAIR.

That also isn't true. The ALPA strike benefits are a stipend and do not provide for a higher salary than the CMR FO's were getting. You seem to forget to factor in taxes, medical coverage, lost retirement match, etc. There's always more to the story.

Looks like the guys and gals at MESABA are up against that same wall. I hope and pray it works out for them.

I agree wholeheartedly. They have my support, both financial and emotional.

Of course you do have the problem of total lack of loyalty by the MAIN line Pilots. How come Delta ALPA pilots allow the guys and gals at ASA and COMAIR to be paid less then they get. Or how come they allow 3 different contracts for the pilot groups?

It is called the RAILWAY LABOR ACT. I suggest you go to the National Mediation Board's website at www.nmb.gov and do some reading. Not too exciting, but you'll learn a lot. Delta pilots can't negotiate for a group that is certified as a different class and craft under the RLA and vice versa. For each class and craft there must be a different agreement.

If COMAIR and ASA are wholly owned by Delta, should not Delta Mainline ALPA Pilots demand that the 3 groups merge into a single group, with a single VOICE?

They can demand all they want but until the NMB recognizes them as one single class and craft, its nothing more than a fantasy. Where's the leverage here?

[Continued next post]

 

[Sam Fisher]

How come ALPA has not screamed bloody murder when Delta threaten to outsource to the lowest bidder (That is supposed to be a dirty word to UNION bubbas) COMAIR flying because those guys and gals had the courage to refuse any concession on their contract. WHERE WAS ALPA THEN? It is amazing that Delta goes after one of the few profitable parts of their company.

You have no idea if Comair is profitable or not. The only people who know are the internal finance people at Delta and Comair. You can allocate costs and revenues any way you wish when it comes to subsidiaries. Furthermore, ALPA doesn't scream "bloody murder." They must work within the legal framework provided to them. Which they are doing. Again, you are confusing ALPA NATIONAL with each individual MEC. An MEC is only as strong as its own members. ALPA National doesn't have as much local control as one thinks.

Any way guys and gals that is my 2 cents worth. I am not in the Regionals (YET, Hope to be next year) so I do not have a lot of insight into your industry, just my observations from reading these boards and my friends that are in the Regionals.

Good luck. Hope to see you here flying one of our "regional" jets soon. Your eyes will be opened up even more I hope. Its a fun place to work and great people are at all of these airlines.

Sam

PS - I feel like Surplus1 with this 2 page post. Eeks.

 

[WhiteCloud]

The thing that makes some kind of seniority system necessary is that we are all basically doing the same job year after year. Just like teachers. Once you're Captain qualified, a 20 year veteran is doing the same job as a new Captain. When times get tough it would be the 20 year guys getting fired since they cost more. Just for example. With proper training, a B747 can be legally commanded by a 1500 hour pilot with a type rating. Safe? Legal-yes. Without some kind of protection the higher time Captains will be cycled out. They way things are today, once you make Captain you'd never get a pay rise of any substance if there were not some union or seniority system in place.

 

[whiskytangofoxt]

I agree, if everybody keeps lowering the bar when will it stop?
at some point we will be paying these morons to fly the planes. The saftey issue has flow out the window in order to fill the lowest paid seats. Did'nt we get in this occupation to make a living. remember some commuters out there really take care of the pilots, and make it worthwhile to retire from those companies. When we lower the bar, we trash an occupation.

 

[350DRIVER]

The pay will always be p!ss poor for many many reasons. The main reason is that the regionals target the colleges/bridge programs to hire "kids" with 400 hours TT and absolutely no experience whatsoever. You really think they give a flying fuc$ about pay, and even if they did they surely are going to keep their mouth shut ( they won't have to "instruct" this way!!). Until the practice stops and until the bar is raised instead of constantly being lowered then money will continue to be very poor to start. This is not the only reason but I do consider it to be a big and "key" reason why these college programs are so successful. I personally "laughed" when we had an agreement with a college that had a flight school. These dumb sob's would be trained, check ride, then fly for free... Woo hooo, that surely does nothing for the people who earned there position. Fortunately thanks to a few from within this "agreement" was terminated. ( guess there is a God)


3 5 0

 

[Trash8Mofo]

Originally posted by 350DRIVER The pay will always be p!ss poor for many many reasons. The main reason is that the regionals target the colleges/bridge programs to hire "kids" with 400 hours TT and absolutely no experience whatsoever. You really think they give a flying fuc$ about pay, and even if they did they surely are going to keep their mouth shut ( they won't have to "instruct" this way!!). Until the practice stops and until the bar is raised instead of constantly being lowered then money will continue to be very poor to start. This is not the only reason but I do consider it to be a big and "key" reason why these college programs are so successful. I personally "laughed" when we had an agreement with a college that had a flight school. These dumb sob's would be trained, check ride, then fly for free... Woo hooo, that surely does nothing for the people who earned there position. Fortunately thanks to a few from within this "agreement" was terminated. ( guess there is a God)

On the other hand, if we had a certification board that is similar to the bar for the lawyers, and maybe an entrance exam such as the MCAT for doctors, we maybe able to limit the supply of pilots. Hence, it would be harder to go to these flight schools to start out with. And those who graduated, will have a better chance of getting a good paying job, and not having to take whatever is avb and undercut everybody. A universal minimum payscale set by ALPA for each type of aircraft wouldnt hurt either. Watch, if ACA is really getting airbuses, they are going to drive down the entire industrie's 130seat pay rate (A319/717,and 737-300).
3 5 0 [/B]

 

[dasburt]

Sam

Thanks for the education. Can’t argue with what you have written. I was under the assumption that the negotiating committee were ALPA personnel ONLY, did not know they where mostly people from the company.

I guess my Rabid Anti-union attitude is still somewhat present, will have to work on that.

Could you explain MEC? And any idea what the address is going to be for the MESABA pilot’s fund?

Once again thanks for the education and the civility.

Das

 

[Sam Fisher]

Sam

Thanks for the education. Can’t argue with what you have written. I was under the assumption that the negotiating committee were ALPA personnel ONLY, did not know they where mostly people from the company.

I guess my Rabid Anti-union attitude is still somewhat present, will have to work on that.

Could you explain MEC? And any idea what the address is going to be for the MESABA pilot’s fund?

Once again thanks for the education and the civility.

Das

Das,

No problem, I guess if it takes 1 on 1 education, eventually everyone will "see the light." That is what ALPA's Pilot-to-Pilot program is all about. Personal interaction and one on one education - the best kind.

The MEC is Master Executive Council. Each airline within ALPA has one. Call it the governing body for each airline. Each MEC is made up of the individual status reps for each LEC, or Local Executive Council. There is a Captain and FO rep for each LEC. They are elected by the pilots in their LEC. The MEC has a chairman, vice-chairman, and secretary-treasurer and they are elected by the elected status reps. Every 2 years, all of the ALPA LEC reps and MEC reps get together for the ALPA Board of Directors meeting as the BOD is made up of all of the elected reps within ALPA. Again, ALPA National is run by pilots, not professionals. The professionals are only there for guidance and advice.

Not sure where to send a Mesaba check yet. Time will tell.

So yea, our Negotiating Committee is made up of 3 line pilots. One captain in his late 30's who is senior, married with kids. One captain in his late 20's who is a junior captain and married with no kids. And an FO who is a senior FO who is not married and in his mid 20's. Its a great cross section and I'm glad the XJT part of our MEC is not run by a bunch of senior guys who are out to screw the junior guys.

Sam