How a Union is formed.

[Uppercrust]

I'm pretty sure this was covered in other threads several times.

You might want to do some research on this subject. Your going to wish you had one in a few years.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Hey Occam:​

As for the Constitution, thanks for the refresher, I have pledged to defend it many times in my military career. It is folly to think that the Framers were thinking along the lines of a union (as in collective labor) when they wrote the Constitution.

As for the Revolution, there were many who did not want to "collectively" fight the British. This country was on pretty shaky ground for quite a while. I just thought it was a funny analogy, thanks for the insulting humor. I can take it.

And as for the union issue, I think you are missing the point. I concede that unions have given the industry a foundation of solid work rules, safety standards and benefits; in fact, I never said they didn't. But what would a union do for us in the same manner that ALPA has done for DL/US/UA/NWA etc at this point in time? Would it help JB stay afloat? Would it make JB profitable? Would it keep the bottom third from getting furloughed during the tough times? Would it keep the entire list from choking down a pay cut? This could all happen with or without a union.

The way I look at it, if you are senior enough to be protected you will be. If you ain't, you won't. Unions work for all when the money flows. When the money flies, only the senior survive.

I have a friend who flies for a legacy who tells me their reserves are flying like gangbusters, yet they still have pilots on the street. If this is indeed true, why wouldn't a union step up and intervene? Why is not each member of that union worth fighting for? That, along with the recent spate of bankruptcies and ALPA's involvement with each, is how I view unions.

"Will those adjustments reflect the collective priorities of the pilots...or the priorities of management? At that point the Blame Game is pretty simple for you...since you won't have a union to blame."

Should I infer from this statement that every legacy pilot blames ALPA for their airline's demise? I never said I would blame a union or lack thereof for any of JB's mistakes. If JB swallows a grenade, it swallows a grenade. It's an airline, isn't it?

Which airline do you work for?

Edit: "I don't think JetBlue very special or truly unique."

Maybe you are correct. Maybe we are just like those legacy pilots that pay their dues and hope (maybe pray) that their airline's flavor of ALPA is "different."

 

[Dizel8]

Curious why so many people not employed by jetblue wants us to have a union?

Besides, if we were your ALPA brothers, you couldn't call us names and what fun would that be?

 

[Occam's Razor]

As for the Constitution, thanks for the refresher, I have pledged to defend it many times in my military career. It is folly to think that the Framers were thinking along the lines of a union (as in collective labor) when they wrote the Constitution.

Holy Coincidence! ME TOO! What are the odds two pilots writing on this Forum would've taken the exact same oath? Let's play the Lottery!

As for the Revolution, there were many who did not want to "collectively" fight the British. This country was on pretty shaky ground for quite a while. I just thought it was a funny analogy, thanks for the insulting humor. I can take it.

Good, because I meant it in a fraternal way. I was trying to use an analogy that clearly illustrated the benefit of acting collectively against a force that you are tied to...but might not have your best interests at heart.

And as for the union issue, I think you are missing the point. I concede that unions have given the industry a foundation of solid work rules, safety standards and benefits; in fact, I never said they didn't. But what would a union do for us in the same manner that ALPA has done for DL/US/UA/NWA etc at this point in time?

If we're going to use a snapshot to frame the discussion, then maybe we should use September 10, 2001 as our benchmark. I'd say the union airlines were doing pretty good at that moment. If we use September 10, 2015, perhaps we'll see the same thing. I mentioned the cyclical nature of the industry, right?

Would it help JB stay afloat? Would it make JB profitable? Would it keep the bottom third from getting furloughed during the tough times? Would it keep the entire list from choking down a pay cut? This could all happen with or without a union.

Correct! The key difference is that the rules that govern how I'm treated at my airline are codified, and when they are changed it is done with my consent, with a structure based on my (collective) priorities. At non-union carriers it's done with a memo.

The way I look at it, if you are senior enough to be protected you will be. If you ain't, you won't. Unions work for all when the money flows. When the money flies, only the senior survive.

Good point! Unions can't defy gravity. They aren't as powerful as the forces arrayed against us at times. The union at NWA paid the medical insurance premiums for furloughed NWA pilots for 3-years. At other ALPA carriers extended pass travel agreements were negotiated to help those that felt the impact of economic "physics". Even "when the money flies", the unions do what they can....but they cannot change the course of mighty rivers or bend steel with their bare hands.

I have a friend who flies for a legacy who tells me their reserves are flying like gangbusters, yet they still have pilots on the street. If this is indeed true, why wouldn't a union step up and intervene? Why is not each member of that union worth fighting for? That, along with the recent spate of bankruptcies and ALPA's involvement with each, is how I view unions.

Since I'm on Reserve at a legacy airline, I might be in a better position to comment on that than you. I fly more during holiday months than non-holiday months. I think that's normal. I think it might even be true at non-union airlines. Even in boom times, the "fly more during some months" rule existed. I understand it's that way at airlines represented by APA/SWAPA/IBT too. Is it different at JetBlue?

Should I infer from this statement that every legacy pilot blames ALPA for their airline's demise? I never said I would blame a union or lack thereof for any of JB's mistakes. If JB swallows a grenade, it swallows a grenade. It's an airline, isn't it?

Nah, every pilot doesn't blame ALPA. Some do. We tend to be a pragmatic sort...but some of us need a "messiah". Since some forces can't be overcome, those that view their union (APA/ALPA/SWAPA/IBT/etc) as penicillian or wolfbane are disappointed. You and I have both read some of their rants.

Maybe you are correct. Maybe we are just like those legacy pilots that pay their dues and hope (maybe pray) that their airline's flavor of ALPA is "different."

Hey, SWAF/O! What "flavor" is your ALPA?

Are you praying?