How a Union is formed.

[sandman2122]

At Jetblue I believe it's not a matter of IF, but WHEN.

and please no "yeah, well, when hell freezes over blah, blah, blah".

 

[81Horse]

Occam, simply brilliant.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

The 13 colonies unionized? Ha.

"So far, the pilots at JetBlue seem to feel that they would not benefit from a union. If they go many more years without one they will be a noteworthy exception in the history of US airlines."

And it's such a successful, unionized history...

"The ex-patriate union pilot then go to JetBlue as either their best option or in the belief that JetBlue is somehow "different"."

What is wrong with wanting to be a part of an airline that is different? What is wrong in believing that at JB, it can work?

"It's true that not every daughter of a fat lady grows up to become a porker herself...but both history and last quarter's losses indicate that Miss JetBlue has been sneaking Snickers bars between meals."

Pure pilot bravado. Any casual reader would infer from this statement that JB has had a history of annual or quarter losses.

"If JetBlue swallows a grenade, it will be interesting to see who the pilots blame. Their benevolent management? The government? The unions at other airlines for "lowering the bar"? (If I was scientist I'd put radio collars around their necks to track their behavior.)"

Yes, oh wise one, we must have someone to blame -- it's a pilot thing. I am putting the blame on Wayne Gretzky's wife. Too bad I don't have a union to convey that blame to the public.

 

[radarlove]

Be very careful taking the RLA at face value. A good book to read is "Confessions of a Union Buster", where a professional consultant who destroyed union organizing efforts for a living described his tactics.

Yes, it's againt the law for firing someone for organizing a union. But, if a company fires someone, the guy fired has to go round-and-round in court to get his job back. He will, probably get his job back, but not his costs to fight (there's no union yet to cover that).

Also, if you get fired and get another job while fighting to get your first back, you'll only get back pay that is the difference between the two jobs.

In the end, it's a lot cheaper for companies to fire the rabble-rousers, only to have to hire them back later, since the back-pay cost is a lot less than the cost of having a union on the property.

Also, it's not a sure thing. Both ALPA and the Teamsters require not just the minimum percentage in cards submitted, but some (undisclosed) higher ratio, like 70% or 80% before they'll take on a pilot group, so it's possible to have a "successful" card campaign, but to still not make the cut.

In-house unions sound like a good idea, but there's problems there, too. In-house unions have no money, no organization, no contract (not even the right to collect dues yet!) so it will likely take years to get the benefits of a big, operating organization like ALPA.

Even if ALPA sucks. At least the Teamsters suck harder.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The 13 colonies unionized? Ha.

Um...I was just reading the US Constitution, and it started off with, "We the People, in order to form a more perfect union..."

I think there's a copy of it on the internet somewhere if you'd like to read it for yourself.

I apologize if the "benefits of collective effort" analogy didn't make sense to you.

"So far, the pilots at JetBlue seem to feel that they would not benefit from a union. If they go many more years without one they will be a noteworthy exception in the history of US airlines."

And it's such a successful, unionized history...

Well, since every major airline has been unionized, and there seems to be more than one pilot interested in getting hired at a major airline, I gotta believe the "unionized history" of the majors is pretty good. I'm not sure that many ex-pat pilots from unionized carriers would have gone to JetBlue had the bottom not fallen out of the industry for the legacy carriers.

It did. They did. If your contention is that legacy carrier pilots would have been flocking to JetBlue to escape ALPA/APA/IBT/SWAPA/etc, then I think you should provide some evidence to support that thesis.

I also think the unions at the legacy carrers have "set the bar" for the profession over the years in terms of pay, work rules, and benefits. I don't think Mr. Neeleman used a dart board to set the rules at JetBlue. I think he evaluated the union-established rules at the legacy carriers, and calculated his from that reference.

"The ex-patriate union pilot then go to JetBlue as either their best option or in the belief that JetBlue is somehow "different".

What is wrong with wanting to be a part of an airline that is different? What is wrong in believing that at JB, it can work?

Not a thing!

I'm voicing some skepticism here, that's all. I'm using the history of the airline industry as my "grain of salt" when I read that JetBlue is "special" and "unique".

I don't think JetBlue very special or truly unique.

I think SWA is unique. They operate differently than any other major airline. They are also highly unionized. Somehow they manage to remain profitable despite their pilots having a collective voice.

"If JetBlue swallows a grenade, it will be interesting to see who the pilots blame. Their benevolent management? The government? The unions at other airlines for "lowering the bar"? (If I was scientist I'd put radio collars around their necks to track their behavior.)"

Yes, oh wise one, we must have someone to blame -- it's a pilot thing. I am putting the blame on Wayne Gretzky's wife. Too bad I don't have a union to convey that blame to the public.

I agree with you here. We do like to have someone, or something to blame. As pilots we are quite practiced in the Blame Game. We are interested in learning the "probable cause(s)" and the "contributing factors" when things go wrong. We don't want to repeat mistakes.

I think that's healthy.

JetBlue experienced losses in the last quarter, and probably for the year. We can blame those losses on: The government, OPEC, management, interest rates, consumers, or market forces.

If they continue JetBlue management will be faced with making some "adjustments". Some of those adjustments may impact JetBlue pilots. Will those adjustments reflect the collective priorities of the pilots...or the priorities of management?

At that point the Blame Game is pretty simple for you...since you won't have a union to blame.

 

[Uppercrust]

I'm pretty sure this was covered in other threads several times.

You might want to do some research on this subject. Your going to wish you had one in a few years.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Hey Occam:​

As for the Constitution, thanks for the refresher, I have pledged to defend it many times in my military career. It is folly to think that the Framers were thinking along the lines of a union (as in collective labor) when they wrote the Constitution.

As for the Revolution, there were many who did not want to "collectively" fight the British. This country was on pretty shaky ground for quite a while. I just thought it was a funny analogy, thanks for the insulting humor. I can take it.

And as for the union issue, I think you are missing the point. I concede that unions have given the industry a foundation of solid work rules, safety standards and benefits; in fact, I never said they didn't. But what would a union do for us in the same manner that ALPA has done for DL/US/UA/NWA etc at this point in time? Would it help JB stay afloat? Would it make JB profitable? Would it keep the bottom third from getting furloughed during the tough times? Would it keep the entire list from choking down a pay cut? This could all happen with or without a union.

The way I look at it, if you are senior enough to be protected you will be. If you ain't, you won't. Unions work for all when the money flows. When the money flies, only the senior survive.

I have a friend who flies for a legacy who tells me their reserves are flying like gangbusters, yet they still have pilots on the street. If this is indeed true, why wouldn't a union step up and intervene? Why is not each member of that union worth fighting for? That, along with the recent spate of bankruptcies and ALPA's involvement with each, is how I view unions.

"Will those adjustments reflect the collective priorities of the pilots...or the priorities of management? At that point the Blame Game is pretty simple for you...since you won't have a union to blame."

Should I infer from this statement that every legacy pilot blames ALPA for their airline's demise? I never said I would blame a union or lack thereof for any of JB's mistakes. If JB swallows a grenade, it swallows a grenade. It's an airline, isn't it?

Which airline do you work for?

Edit: "I don't think JetBlue very special or truly unique."

Maybe you are correct. Maybe we are just like those legacy pilots that pay their dues and hope (maybe pray) that their airline's flavor of ALPA is "different."

 

[Dizel8]

Curious why so many people not employed by jetblue wants us to have a union?

Besides, if we were your ALPA brothers, you couldn't call us names and what fun would that be?

 

[Occam's Razor]

As for the Constitution, thanks for the refresher, I have pledged to defend it many times in my military career. It is folly to think that the Framers were thinking along the lines of a union (as in collective labor) when they wrote the Constitution.

Holy Coincidence! ME TOO! What are the odds two pilots writing on this Forum would've taken the exact same oath? Let's play the Lottery!

As for the Revolution, there were many who did not want to "collectively" fight the British. This country was on pretty shaky ground for quite a while. I just thought it was a funny analogy, thanks for the insulting humor. I can take it.

Good, because I meant it in a fraternal way. I was trying to use an analogy that clearly illustrated the benefit of acting collectively against a force that you are tied to...but might not have your best interests at heart.

And as for the union issue, I think you are missing the point. I concede that unions have given the industry a foundation of solid work rules, safety standards and benefits; in fact, I never said they didn't. But what would a union do for us in the same manner that ALPA has done for DL/US/UA/NWA etc at this point in time?

If we're going to use a snapshot to frame the discussion, then maybe we should use September 10, 2001 as our benchmark. I'd say the union airlines were doing pretty good at that moment. If we use September 10, 2015, perhaps we'll see the same thing. I mentioned the cyclical nature of the industry, right?

Would it help JB stay afloat? Would it make JB profitable? Would it keep the bottom third from getting furloughed during the tough times? Would it keep the entire list from choking down a pay cut? This could all happen with or without a union.

Correct! The key difference is that the rules that govern how I'm treated at my airline are codified, and when they are changed it is done with my consent, with a structure based on my (collective) priorities. At non-union carriers it's done with a memo.

The way I look at it, if you are senior enough to be protected you will be. If you ain't, you won't. Unions work for all when the money flows. When the money flies, only the senior survive.

Good point! Unions can't defy gravity. They aren't as powerful as the forces arrayed against us at times. The union at NWA paid the medical insurance premiums for furloughed NWA pilots for 3-years. At other ALPA carriers extended pass travel agreements were negotiated to help those that felt the impact of economic "physics". Even "when the money flies", the unions do what they can....but they cannot change the course of mighty rivers or bend steel with their bare hands.

I have a friend who flies for a legacy who tells me their reserves are flying like gangbusters, yet they still have pilots on the street. If this is indeed true, why wouldn't a union step up and intervene? Why is not each member of that union worth fighting for? That, along with the recent spate of bankruptcies and ALPA's involvement with each, is how I view unions.

Since I'm on Reserve at a legacy airline, I might be in a better position to comment on that than you. I fly more during holiday months than non-holiday months. I think that's normal. I think it might even be true at non-union airlines. Even in boom times, the "fly more during some months" rule existed. I understand it's that way at airlines represented by APA/SWAPA/IBT too. Is it different at JetBlue?

Should I infer from this statement that every legacy pilot blames ALPA for their airline's demise? I never said I would blame a union or lack thereof for any of JB's mistakes. If JB swallows a grenade, it swallows a grenade. It's an airline, isn't it?

Nah, every pilot doesn't blame ALPA. Some do. We tend to be a pragmatic sort...but some of us need a "messiah". Since some forces can't be overcome, those that view their union (APA/ALPA/SWAPA/IBT/etc) as penicillian or wolfbane are disappointed. You and I have both read some of their rants.

Maybe you are correct. Maybe we are just like those legacy pilots that pay their dues and hope (maybe pray) that their airline's flavor of ALPA is "different."

Hey, SWAF/O! What "flavor" is your ALPA?

Are you praying?