Horizon/Alaska flow through?

[Sioux115]

I was cruising around the web and came upon a study done for AAG showing how much money in payroll and training costs the Group would save if Horizon's senior captains went to Alaska. It seems to be a part of the 2010 plan. Anybody have some insight on this? Is it still being looked into? It looks like it was done in 2003. Thanks.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

How did they say that it would save money? A CRJ CA leaving qxwould trigger something like 4 training events at qx and 1 at AS. Hiring from outside the family would only require 1 training event atAS and none at QX.

The flow through agreement rumor has been around for years at QX. In the past flying for QX probably hurt your chances for a job at AS.

 

[ClearRight]

You're taking a captain on the 12+ year payscale at Horizon and putting him back at the 1st year payscale at Alaska. Don't know how that compares to training cost, but it's something to think about...

 

[DashTrash400]

The QX-AS flowthrough rumor has been around for a long time, I'd be surprised to actually see it happen. A lot of the QX pilots are opposed to it, mainly because the disadvantage is huge (flowback displacing QX pilots) and the advantage really isn't there being as AS already likes to hire QX guys and if you meet their minimums, it's practically a guaranteed interview already.

To borrow an expression, why buy the cow when the milk is free?

Ask Eagle guys what they think of flowthrough agreements.

 

[surplus1]

Sioux115,

I don't work for QX or AS so I don't pretend to speak for either of them. What I will say to you is this: Flow-through agreements of the type that have been used elsewhere are a disadvantage to regional pilots and should be avoided like the plague.

First - They are beneficial only to a few of the most senior pilots at the regional.

Second - They endanger the job security of the junior pilots at the regional.

Third - The only benefit they offer the pilots at the "major" is furlough protection, which comes at the expense of the regional pilots.

Fourth - In the format used at Eagle, they provide "super seniority" for mainline pilots (at the regional) which results in the displacement of regional captains and their replacement by very junior mainline pilots. A travesty of fairness in the extreme. That concept should be DOA wherever it is proposed.

Unless you or someone else can come up with a brand new concept of flow-through that has never been used before, the pursuit of this idea should be avoided by all regional pilots like the plague that it is.

If you can devise a "flow-through" where flow-up goes to the bottom of the list and flow-back goes to the bottom of the list, have at it. I predict you will never get a mainline pilot to agree to that. Ask yourself why.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

There is no formal "flow-through" agreement at Alaska/Horizon, but historically (including the most recent new hire class, according to a friend who is in this class) has had at least a couple Horizon pilots in each one.

So Surplus, AS makes it a point to hire QX pilots in every new hire class without "furlough protection" for the mainline guys, without a "flow-back" arrangement, or without anything else that is at the "expense of the regional pilots".

The whole world is not out to get you and your regional brothers, no matter how hard you strive to convince us otherwise with your unending rhetoric, metaphors and extreme melodrama. But it makes for entertaing reading. For at least 30 seconds or so. Or after one had read the same tired old phrases for the 68,000th time.

 

[surplus1]

So Surplus, AS makes it a point to hire QX pilots in every new hire class without "furlough protection" for the mainline guys, without a "flow-back" arrangement, or without anything else that is at the "expense of the regional pilots".

That's great! Sounds like a normal hiring provedure to me and I'm all it favor of that. Now if you'll step to the podium you can get your gold star for effort.

The whole world is not out to get you and your regional brothers, no matter how hard you strive to convince us otherwise with your unending rhetoric, metaphors and extreme melodrama. But it makes for entertaing reading. For at least 30 seconds or so. Or after one had read the same tired old phrases for the 68,000th time.

I don't think anybody is out to get me and trust me, I could not care less about convincing you or your peers. Neither do I intend to let anyone that chooses to try to "get me" succeed. If you don't want to read what I write, just skip over it and rest assured I won't even notice. Meanwhile, dazzle someone else with your version of the BS stream.

 

[dogg]

There is no formal "flow-through" agreement at Alaska/Horizon, but historically (including the most recent new hire class, according to a friend who is in this class) has had at least a couple Horizon pilots in each one.

So Surplus, AS makes it a point to hire QX pilots in every new hire class without "furlough protection" for the mainline guys, without a "flow-back" arrangement, or without anything else that is at the "expense of the regional pilots".

The whole world is not out to get you and your regional brothers, no matter how hard you strive to convince us otherwise with your unending rhetoric, metaphors and extreme melodrama. But it makes for entertaing reading. For at least 30 seconds or so. Or after one had read the same tired old phrases for the 68,000th time.

So there ya go Doosh...... rippin' on Surplus for stating the obvious...Flow-Through agreements are a bad idea and they have(if you do your research)benefitted the furloughed major pilots by a split of 30:1 over the regional guys moving up... And they were hatched by the senior guys at the regionals who knew that they were not going to be competitive for an interview and the MEC at the majors who knew that furlough numbers are always substantially higher than retirements and growth...And yes if ALPA national officers were honest they never would have allowed representation of both work groups by the same union because of the HUGE conflict of interest that it represents.....But they aren't so they did.....Lay off the guy Doosh, he hits the nail on the head 99 percent of the time....He has the uncanny ability to say "if it looks like s#!t, smells like s#!t, tastes like s#!T and feels like s#!t, then it must be S#!T !!!!!!!!!!! -as you were-

 

[NRHPilot]

The flow through idea sucks. Period. The Senior Eagle captians that made this crap flow through with American sold there souls to fly over there. Benefited about 200 guys and is screwing 2700 now.

 

[michael707767]

I've always thought the way to do a flow is like this.... The regional pilot can flow up to the bottom of the mailine list, and flow back seniority intact, to the regional list, since he/she came from there. A mainline pilot who was hired off the street could flow back also, but to the bottom of the regional list, since he/she did not come from there. This way the regional pilot looses nothing in trying to move up to the mainline and the off the street hire at the mainline gains furlough protection, even if its to the bottom of the regional list.
Michael

 

[AviatorTx]

From a COEX guy who's seniority group lost their @$$ with the FTA...

The flowthrough we HAD here sucked. When things were good, we thought it was a good thing. When 9-11 happened, it bit us in the butt, hard. IMHO, the bad has by far outweighed the good. Many of us are just now re-capturing our pre-nine-eleven seniority.

Why & how: The flow up was a 1/3 ratio. The flow back was 100%. Basically it was a two way street with different speed limits in each direction. 10 MPH up to Continental, and 100 MPH back to Express.

Honestly though, I am all for a new flowthrough if it is rewritten from scratch. It will need to be equally beneficial to both parties regardless of the circumstances. EG, 1/3 up, 1/3 back, or 1/1 up, 1/1 back. It has to go in the same speed BOTH directions.

After thinking this over very logically for over three years now, I can honestly say the FTA has hurt my pilot group more than it ever helped. Sure, there was advancements due to the flow to CAL, but the flip side was many COEX pilots were not applying and moving on to other jobs like they were at the other small jet operators. I honestly think my seniority block would have advanced faster with no FTA as pilots would have been sucked up by the majors, instead of waiting for the golden carrot. Of course, that was before 9/11. It's a whole new ballgame now.

Be careful what you wish for... You just might get it.