holds and protected AIRSPACE

[PC12Cowboy]

OK so we know how far the protected side of the hold extends...but how far does it goes on the unprotected side??? this is specified in the terps...is it not??
any help with this matter is greatly appreciated

 

[User546]

how about zero?..... you shouldn't be over there at all....

I think it's a fair question though. Sure you shouldn't be over there, but I guarantee you they have a built-in "protected" area that gives pilots a buffer in case they don't nail that initial hold entry right on.

I'm curious to hear what it is.

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/Directives_files/7130-3A.pdf has the answers.

There are 31 different templates used to build holding patterns. If you look at the diagrams you can see there is a pretty good chunk of airspace that is protected, even on the non-holding side. TERPS takes into effect things like bank angle error, navigation error, winds, etc. The primary area gives you the 1000' obstruction clearance (2000' in the mountains). There is a secondary area that is 2nm larger than the primary where you a provided 500' obstruction clearance. Anyway, the answer is... it depends.

 

[nosehair]

you shouldn't be over there at all.... anyone that wants to know prob. knows how many rivets are in the airplane.

Every time you make a "parrallel" entry, you're "over there". Of course you should know how much space you have "over there". As has been posted, "it depends", but you should have a rough idea, for those "unusual" days or situations.

 

[A Squared]

how about zero?..... you shouldn't be over there at all.... anyone that wants to know prob. knows how many rivets are in the airplane.

Ahhh to be young and ignorant, yet think you know it all.

Ok, there, hotshot, heres the clearence: hold north of the XYZ NDB on the 180 bearing to the beacon, right turns. You're approaching the beacon from the west, on a 090 bearing to the station. No DME or GPS. Explain in detail how you propose to enter the hold without being on the non-holding side of the holding course? Have you figured out some way to make your plane come to a screeching halt right over the beacon, and neatly pivot in midair?

Something else for you to chew on, you ever watched both ADFs and DME as you cross over a radio beacon? You ever noticed that there may be as much as a half mile or more between when the first needle flips indicating station passage and the second needle flips? You think there might be some error there?

OK lets say you're inbound at 140 knots in the situation described. You start your turn when the needle flips (1/2 mile past the beacon) Using the 10% rule of thumb, that puts you aother 1.4 nm into the non-holding side. (actually if you roll promptly into the turn it will be less than 1.4, but we're in ball park.) So, it's very possible to be almost 2 miles into the nonholding side just due to physics and inherent system error.

OK, the actual answer to the question: As Clutch Cargo pointed out there are a bunch of different templates used depending on altitude and such. If you use the *smallest* template, you have 3.2 nm of protected airspace on the non-holding side.

 

[saviboy]

My Cfii taught me that the protected side was 8nm and 4nm for the non protected side. looked it up in the aim( not very long i admit) but did not find anything.

 

[JB74]

My Cfii taught me that the protected side was 8nm and 4nm for the non protected side. looked it up in the aim( not very long i admit) but did not find anything.

My CFII taught me the same thing.

 

[A Squared]

My Cfii taught me that the protected side was 8nm and 4nm for the non protected side. looked it up in the aim( not very long i admit) but did not find anything.

My CFII taught me the same thing.

I think that your respective CFI's may have over generalized a little. It's not quite that simple. As mentioned previously, holding protection is based on a series of 31 templates. Which template is used depends on various factors, including holding speed, altitude, distance of holding fix from navaid.
This information is not found in the AIM, nor is it found in the TERPS. As far as I know, the only source is Order 7130.3A which can be found on this page: http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/directives%20page.htm

A minor correction, in a previous post I said that the smallest template had 3.2 nm on the non-holding side. that's actually the 3rd smallest template, the smallest has 2.6 nm of protected airspace on the non-holding side, and 4.1 on the holding side, which is obviously a long way from 4nm and 8nm of protected airspace. If you are holding below 10,000 ft, you will probably have significantly less proected airspace than 8nm and 4 nm.

 

[Clancy]

There are 31 different templates used to build holding patterns. If you look at the diagrams you can see there is a pretty good chunk of airspace that is protected, even on the non-holding side. TERPS takes into effect things like bank angle error, navigation error, winds, etc. The primary area gives you the 1000' obstruction clearance (2000' in the mountains). There is a secondary area that is 2nm larger than the primary where you a provided 500' obstruction clearance. Anyway, the answer is... it depends.
__________________
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Doesn't this close the discussion. This is the same answer that I got when I instructed by a friend at center control.

 

[The_Russian]

My Cfii taught me that the protected side was 8nm and 4nm for the non protected side. looked it up in the aim( not very long i admit) but did not find anything.

I was told that by an ARTCC guy.