Holding Protection

[JonJohn82]

How much protection is given on both the holding and nonholding sides?

Thanks,
Jon

 

[minitour]

More than I realized...wow!

I don't remember the exact numbers but it's in TERPS references Order 7130.3 Holding Pattern Criteria (at least that's what my oral prep guide says).

It's quite a bit...especially for us buzzing around in a 172. They have to "design" the holding patterns for us and that tripple 7 following us...

Anyway, it's a lot of space...

-mini

 

[Vector4fun]

Jon,


It's not a fixed distance, (For ATC purposes anyway). There was a set of 25 or so templates we used to plot them out. The size template used was determined by the altitudes used at the fix, and typical holding speed. In other words, the protected airspace at an IAF at a GA field near sea level is much, much smaller than the protected airspace around a high altitude fix used by jets.

The funny thing is, since we stopped doing any real non-radar training after the advent of CENRAP a dozen or so years ago, I haven't even seen one of those templates. I've never seen the protected airspace drawn out for the airspace where I currently work. We just know from experience approximately how much room a Cessna or a King Air or Boeing needs. I don't know if such a plot even exists around here...

 

[DrewBlows]

Vector,

I recall reading a while back (don't know if it was here or somewhere else) that you have more protected space until you report established, so you should report established when inbound, as opposed to when arriving at the holding fix. Is this true? Or does it really matter, since you said with radar you just estimate the protected area anyway (paraphrasing).

 

[minitour]

Actually, doesn't the AIM just say report arriaving or leaving a fix?

I know I was in the practice of reporting "established" the second time I crossed the fix, but I don't think that's a required call...hmmm says I...I'll have to look it up. Good question.

-mini

 

[A Squared]

regarding the airspace dimensions, it does vary with altitude and some other factors. If you take a look at this thread:
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=252401&highlight=template#post252401

it has the dimensions of the smallest template used ... or, no longer used according to Vector4fun.

Regarding "established", yes, the controller is allowed to reduce the protected airspace once you have completed your entry. there's some more information on that in this thread on Doc's Forum:

http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/msgs/11338.html

 

[GIVDrvr]

As stated by Vector, in a radar environment lateral separation is 3mi unless wake turb separation is a factor. A pilot telling ATC he is established is really only a reminder to the controller to log the 'time entered holding' on the flight progress strip. This time is then used to calculate arrival delays and determine sequencing if holding is going on at multiple fixes. It does not reduce any separation criteria. Having said that I think most controllers are fairly wary about skirting Holding Pattern Airspace using lateral separation standards because of the surprisingly high rate of straying a/c....and we're not talking about Grandpa in his cessna here. Plenty of fancy FMS jets get sheparded back to their appropriate HPAS too.

 

[Vector4fun]

Drew,

Yeah, way, way back in my non-radar days, we had a few holding patterns where we plotted "reduced" holding pattern airspace at a few fixes. A report established in holding allowed us to shave a couple miles off the protected airspace, (as A Squared said) and at one or two fixes, that made a difference. At most, it really didn't, so we didn't bother. Any more, in a radar environment, a report entering or leaving a hold is really just a reminder for the controller, and nothing much more. (Oh yeah, I gotta switch this guy to advisory freq...)

I'll mention that perhaps some Center controllers who have to hold a lot for flow might have a different perspective. As a terminal controller, the only real holding we have going on is Cessnas and Cherokees training at satellite airports, an occasional Corp bird waiting for an approach to said satellites, and very, very rairly, an Air Carrier holding for a short period to allow a cell to pass the airfield. In the latter case, they are most often holding at a DME fix someplace, nothing published, and I couldn't care less if they just made standard rate 360s for five minutes.....

 

[minitour]

...In the latter case, they are most often holding at a DME fix someplace, nothing published, and I couldn't care less if they just made standard rate 360s for five minutes.....

I'm sure the pax would though...eek...that's quite a bit of bank for five straight minutes...

-mini

 

[A Squared]

A pilot telling ATC he is established is really only a reminder to the controller to log the 'time entered holding' on the flight progress strip. This time is then used to calculate arrival delays and determine sequencing if holding is going on at multiple fixes. It does not reduce any separation criteria.

Well, actually, yes, it *does* reduce seperation criteria. It's explained in FAA Order 7130.3A. That's why I provided the references to my information. Did you read them? As Vector notes, he doesn't use it much, or at all, but he also notes he's a terminal controller and doesn't do non-radar ops much. Here where I fly, it's mostly non-radar ops, the airpors are one in-one out, and when the weather is low holding is a fact of life. I don't know how often this is utilized, probably not very often, but if the controller says "report established" that's not just another way of saying "report entering the hold" there's a reason for the different phrase.